Author Topic: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?  (Read 12212 times)

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borg286

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2010, 11:10:30 AM »
Cloistered Cleric 1/Psion 5
or
Cloistered Cleric 1/Ardent 5

with the magic mantle and the illuminan race with the naenhoon sigils

Sense Danger is personal power with a 10 min/level duration.  Magic Mantle allows you to treat the psionic powers as typical spells.  Naenhoon is the sigil combination that allows you to use turn attempts on two spells per day, unlike divine metamagic it works on any spells.  Thus due to Naenhoon you can now persist sense danger.  Combine with the Synchronicity power and now you always get to act first.

Always acting first and third level spells is pretty hard to beat.
where is Sense Danger. I see Danger Sense which helps against traps, so that's not it.
How does the Psion gain a mantle, or how does an ardent gain Synchronicity ?

borg286

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2010, 12:21:41 PM »
I'd offer up this build up as a possible opponent towards your famed Artificer.


The Astral Hunter
Male Adult Neraph Ranger 6
Medium Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (53 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+0 armor, +2 dex, +2 natural armor, -1 Vulnerable); Touch: 13; Flat-footed: 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+8
Attack: +8 melee (1d8+2/x2; 6 lbs.; bludgeoning & piercing; morningstarannulat) or +8 ranged (1d8+2/x3; 110ft.; piercing; composite longbow)
Full Attack: +8/+3 melee (1d8+2/x2; 6 lbs.; bludgeoning & piercing; morningstarannulat) or +8/+3 ranged (1d8+2/x3; 110ft.; piercing; composite longbow)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Qualities: Darkvision (60ft.), Fast Movement (+10), Favored Enemy (Arcanist; +2), Neraph Camouflage, Trapfinding, Voice of the City, Wildshape (Small & Medium Animals; 2/day for 6 hours each), Weapon Familiarity (Annulat),  
Saves: Fort +5, Reflex +7, Will +4
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills/Skill Tricks: Concentration +12, Disable Device +11, Heal +3, Hide +11, Jump +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (Nature) +13, Knowledge (Religion) +7, Knowledge (the Planes) +8, Move Silently +11, Search +13, Spellcraft +13, Spot +4 and Survival +15; Collector of Stories
Feats/Flaws: Apprentice (Woodsman) [1st], Education [Flaw], Shape Soulmeld (Planar Ward) [Flaw], Nemesis (Arcanists) [3rd], Sword of the Arcane Order [6th]; Meager Fortitude and Vulnerable
Challenge Rating: 6
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Languages Spoken: Abyssal, Common, Neraph, and Slaad.
Spells prepared (6th level):
0: 3
1: 3
2: 2
3: 1
Varients Used: Mystic Ranger, Shape-Changer, Trap Expert, and Voice of the City.
Books Used: Book of Exalted Deeds, Champions of Valor, Cityscape Web Enhancement, Complete Scoundrel, Dragon 336, Dungeonscape, Eberron Campaign Setting, Magic of Incarnum, Planar Handbook and Unearthed Arcana.  

A few questions:
Why do you need the Planar Ward?  I don't see it's purpose here other than having a protection against a small catagory of spells.  
What benefit does Voice of the City?  I just don't see it's necessity.
Which element is from Dragon 336?  Which element is from BoED?  Which element is from Eberron?
I presume you went outsider so that shape-change would open up options.  What options are most intriguing to you?
How are you casting 3rd level spells seeing that your Int is only 14?  According to Sword of the Arcane Order you must have a 16 to cast 3rd level spells.

Congrats on making a quad threat I think.  Trapfinding, Melee+wildshape, Spellcasting(BC+debuff...), Ranger spells for some healing and woodsy survival.  This is a great low level tier 1 me thinks.  He can compete with the best.   :clap
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 12:27:35 PM by borg286 »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2010, 12:30:04 PM »
Cloistered Cleric 1/Psion 5
or
Cloistered Cleric 1/Ardent 5

with the magic mantle and the illuminan race with the naenhoon sigils

Sense Danger is personal power with a 10 min/level duration.  Magic Mantle allows you to treat the psionic powers as typical spells.  Naenhoon is the sigil combination that allows you to use turn attempts on two spells per day, unlike divine metamagic it works on any spells.  Thus due to Naenhoon you can now persist sense danger.  Combine with the Synchronicity power and now you always get to act first.

Always acting first and third level spells is pretty hard to beat.
where is Sense Danger. I see Danger Sense which helps against traps, so that's not it.
How does the Psion gain a mantle, or how does an ardent gain Synchronicity ?
I think he meant Detect Hostile Intent instead of Sense Danger.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

borg286

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2010, 01:45:39 PM »
Cloistered Cleric 1/Psion 5
or
Cloistered Cleric 1/Ardent 5

with the magic mantle and the illuminan race with the naenhoon sigils

Sense Danger is personal power with a 10 min/level duration.  Magic Mantle allows you to treat the psionic powers as typical spells.  Naenhoon is the sigil combination that allows you to use turn attempts on two spells per day, unlike divine metamagic it works on any spells.  Thus due to Naenhoon you can now persist sense danger.  Combine with the Synchronicity power and now you always get to act first.

Always acting first and third level spells is pretty hard to beat.
where is Sense Danger. I see Danger Sense which helps against traps, so that's not it.
How does the Psion gain a mantle, or how does an ardent gain Synchronicity ?
I think he meant Detect Hostile Intent instead of Sense Danger.
I think he's trying to use Synchronicity to have a standard action readied for a power point for as many encounters as he can afford.  Synchronicity costs a standard action to use and would thus be useless in battle other than having a more versatile readied action.  Due to this I think he's refering to a different power than either danger sense or detect hostile intent as neither would work as he described.  I'd like a source citation for Sense Danger to consider this build further.

Leram

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2010, 05:37:14 PM »
Just a small fix here:  You don't calculate XP costs based off the reduced cost after material cost reductions(-25%), but off the original material cost(25 GP), therefore the true XP cost would be 1 XP, not .75.  

I didn't, I assumed you would take the different artisan feat (theres one for gp, xp, and time) that reduces the XP cost by 25% also. Doesn't help you until later though, but stacks with Magical Artisan (specific crafting feat, most likely wondrous, which reduces the base gp/xp cost by 25%) for some hardcore breaking wealth by ECL.

Also the +16 wouldnt be that high for crafting only activating (-2, you aren't using a familiar scroll), and assumes you take shape soulmeld which becomes rather useless later on (if you really want to spend a feat, grab item familiar instead to virtually double your ranks and get bonus XP) and an artificer scales directly with his feats (whether by using cost reducers or metamagic feats). Not to mention you can whip out skill enhancer every day of crafting for an easy +4. Especially if you have access to the custom item creation rules (just make a UMD booster and put it on when applying your daily spellstorings or crafting).

Cost reducers may sound underwhelming, but stacking them produces some rather ridiculous results. Magical Artisan(Wondrous) with the artisan feats for X*.75*.5*.75 = 28.125% of market price for all wondrous items.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 05:38:53 PM by Leram »

borg286

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2010, 06:18:03 PM »
Just a small fix here:  You don't calculate XP costs based off the reduced cost after material cost reductions(-25%), but off the original material cost(25 GP), therefore the true XP cost would be 1 XP, not .75.  

I didn't, I assumed you would take the different artisan feat (theres one for gp, xp, and time) that reduces the XP cost by 25% also. Doesn't help you until later though, but stacks with Magical Artisan (specific crafting feat, most likely wondrous, which reduces the base gp/xp cost by 25%) for some hardcore breaking wealth by ECL.

Also the +16 wouldnt be that high for crafting only activating (-2, you aren't using a familiar scroll), and assumes you take shape soulmeld which becomes rather useless later on (if you really want to spend a feat, grab item familiar instead to virtually double your ranks and get bonus XP) and an artificer scales directly with his feats (whether by using cost reducers or metamagic feats). Not to mention you can whip out skill enhancer every day of crafting for an easy +4. Especially if you have access to the custom item creation rules (just make a UMD booster and put it on when applying your daily spellstorings or crafting).

Cost reducers may sound underwhelming, but stacking them produces some rather ridiculous results. Magical Artisan(Wondrous) with the artisan feats for X*.75*.5*.75 = 28.125% of market price for all wondrous items.
In a previous post I showed how you can put multiple spells on a single scroll, thus you can become familiar with it.  II know that shape souldmeld is not as useful as item familiar, but is unavailable at level 3.  For level 1 and 2 only, the soulmeld is hard to beat.  Double that of skill focus with a racial railroad(azurin).
What is the common consensus of using boosters that only last for minutes at a time on a craft check which spans days?

Leram

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2010, 06:42:00 PM »
In a previous post I showed how you can put multiple spells on a single scroll, thus you can become familiar with it.  II know that shape souldmeld is not as useful as item familiar, but is unavailable at level 3.  For level 1 and 2 only, the soulmeld is hard to beat.  Double that of skill focus with a racial railroad(azurin).
What is the common consensus of using boosters that only last for minutes at a time on a craft check which spans days?

Pretty sure the familiarity only applied to activating scrolls (although i can't seem to find the rule for the +2 anywhere, all I see is the rule for activate blindly, which you certainly are not doing) thus wouldn't apply when making the scroll.

When determining whether a class is good at low levels you shouldn't assume they build around low levels at the cost of being suboptimal later, it's not a wise idea to assume retraining. The rules about what happens at what time when making magic items is......nonexistant. So it'd probably boil down to GM fiat, may as well not include it.

If you have custom item rules available though, you pretty much kill item familiar/mage specacles outright. At level 3 you can make a small booster for cheap (and you can always leave it in your pocket if you dont want to use a slot on it during combat). With a small boost and the fact you get a check per day of work, and an extra check on the last day, you should be successful enough really.

borg286

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2010, 07:03:58 PM »
In a previous post I showed how you can put multiple spells on a single scroll, thus you can become familiar with it.  II know that shape souldmeld is not as useful as item familiar, but is unavailable at level 3.  For level 1 and 2 only, the soulmeld is hard to beat.  Double that of skill focus with a racial railroad(azurin).
What is the common consensus of using boosters that only last for minutes at a time on a craft check which spans days?

Pretty sure the familiarity only applied to activating scrolls (although i can't seem to find the rule for the +2 anywhere, all I see is the rule for activate blindly, which you certainly are not doing) thus wouldn't apply when making the scroll.

When determining whether a class is good at low levels you shouldn't assume they build around low levels at the cost of being suboptimal later, it's not a wise idea to assume retraining. The rules about what happens at what time when making magic items is......nonexistant. So it'd probably boil down to GM fiat, may as well not include it.

If you have custom item rules available though, you pretty much kill item familiar/mage specacles outright. At level 3 you can make a small booster for cheap (and you can always leave it in your pocket if you dont want to use a slot on it during combat). With a small boost and the fact you get a check per day of work, and an extra check on the last day, you should be successful enough really.
You're right that I can't use the +2 familiarity bonus on crafting, but only on using the scroll.  As per retraining I consider 3 scenarios: Level 1 only, created at a higher level, and starting at level 1 and proceeding on. 
Level 1 only(mage spectacles) there's no reason not to optimize and pick feats and options that only pay off at level 1.
Starting higher(item familiar/persist) allows for highly unoptimized before that level
level 1-whatever: This is a tough one as you want good results now, but don't want to enjoy investments for only the last few levels of your career.  Depending on your expected career length certain options become better than others.
Thank you for this most enlightening conversation

Tonymitsu

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2010, 08:03:51 PM »
Cloistered Cleric 1/Psion 5
or
Cloistered Cleric 1/Ardent 5

with the magic mantle and the illuminan race with the naenhoon sigils

Sense Danger is personal power with a 10 min/level duration.  Magic Mantle allows you to treat the psionic powers as typical spells.  Naenhoon is the sigil combination that allows you to use turn attempts on two spells per day, unlike divine metamagic it works on any spells.  Thus due to Naenhoon you can now persist sense danger.  Combine with the Synchronicity power and now you always get to act first.

Always acting first and third level spells is pretty hard to beat.
where is Sense Danger. I see Danger Sense which helps against traps, so that's not it.
How does the Psion gain a mantle, or how does an ardent gain Synchronicity ?
I think he meant Detect Hostile Intent instead of Sense Danger.
I think he's trying to use Synchronicity to have a standard action readied for a power point for as many encounters as he can afford.  Synchronicity costs a standard action to use and would thus be useless in battle other than having a more versatile readied action.  Due to this I think he's refering to a different power than either danger sense or detect hostile intent as neither would work as he described.  I'd like a source citation for Sense Danger to consider this build further.

Sense Danger is from Magic of Eberron.

It lasts for 10 minutes per level, and let's you retain your Dexterity even when flat-footed.  It also allows you to manifest any one power as an immediate action during the surprise round, or during the first round of combat if there is no surprise round, provided that power has a normal manifesting time of no greater than a standard action only costs 1 power point.


Synchronicity only costs one power point, so you can use Sense Danger to manifest that, and use your granted readied action to manifest any other power you know (remember that Synchronicity doesn't require you to specify exactly what you are readying for).  A common trick is to use this to manifest Temporal Acceleration to grant yourself an entire turn the instant combat starts.

Phoenix00

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2010, 12:20:55 AM »
Where is Sense Danger. I see Danger Sense which helps against traps, so that's not it.
How does the Psion gain a mantle, or how does an ardent gain Synchronicity ?

Magic of Eberron page 106.  It is a power that is hard to describe how awesome it is until you read it and realize it combine with synchronicity.

Quote
SENSE DANGER
Clairsentience
Level: Psion/wilder 3, psychic warrior 2
Display: Auditory, mental, and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: Psion/wilder 5, psychic warrior 3
The kalashtar of Adar must always be alert for agents of the Dreaming Dark, since an ambush could be around any corner. Kalashtar psychic warriors developed their precognition powers to enable them to be less likely to be caught by surprise.
When you manifest this power, you are able to quickly react to unexpected situations. For the duration of this power, you do not lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class when you are flat-footed. In addition, you can manifest one power as an immediate action during either a surprise round or during the first round if there is no surprise round. The power manifested
must have a manifesting time of 1 standard action, and can have a cost no higher than 1 power point. You can continue to manifest powers as an immediate action at the beginning of later encounters for as long as sense danger is in effect.
Augment: For every additional power point you spend, you can spend 1 more power point on the power you manifest
at the outset of combat.

Psions can learn mantle abilities by taking two feats.  Tap Mantle (to learn powers from that mantle) followed by Don Mantle which gives you the mantle granted ability (and requires the feat Tap Mantle as a pre req)

You can add synchronicity to a mantle via this rule located here.

Quote
Substitute Powers

Considering the esoteric nature of mantles, different ardents may have the same mantle but have different powers available to them. A mantle can have no more than ten powers in it, and if it has fewer, add further powers to fill the gaps if that mantle has no powers of that level. The powers need to fit the theme of the mantle at the DM's discretion. Otherwise, you can substitute a power of equal or lesser level. For example, the sense danger* power could be added to the Fate mantle as a 3rd-level power since only seven powers and no 3rd-level powers are in it, or the faint memory* power could replace escape detection in the Deception mantle.

*Found in Magic of Eberron.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

Personally Sense Danger fits the fate mantle, the freedom mantle, and the guardian mantle.

Synchronicity fits the Time Mantle.

Bastian

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2010, 09:17:28 AM »
I didn't, I assumed you would take the different artisan feat (theres one for gp, xp, and time) that reduces the XP cost by 25% also. Doesn't help you until later though, but stacks with Magical Artisan (specific crafting feat, most likely wondrous, which reduces the base gp/xp cost by 25%) for some hardcore breaking wealth by ECL.

*snip*

Cost reducers may sound underwhelming, but stacking them produces some rather ridiculous results. Magical Artisan(Wondrous) with the artisan feats for X*.75*.5*.75 = 28.125% of market price for all wondrous items.
Actually the best feat to apply Magical Artisan to is Bind Elemental since Bind Elemental can be added to any item and further reduces the cost (see the link in my sig).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 12:36:25 PM by Bastian »

Mixster

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2010, 09:00:43 PM »
A Lesser Aasimar Cloistered Cleric 5/ Church Inquisitor 1/Prestige Paladin 1 With the Kobold & Planning Domains (Through worshipping an ideal), Free knowledge devotion. Assuming you play with stacking base attack bonus.
With Substitute domain, for better spell lists (transformation domain).
Would cover all the bases just as well as an artificer, here's the break down:
With the feats: Extend spell (bonus), Knowledge Devotion (Bonus), Persist spell, DMM Persist, Assume Supernatural Ability.
With 2-3 Nightsticks, and a cloak of charisma +2. You can easily go to 18-22 charisma through being a lesser aasimar.

Trapfinding, just as your artificer.
Healing, (A persisted Lesser Vigor solves all healing problems)
Combat, Can cast Polymorph to make himself a monster on the battlefield, can boost it up with divine power if he wants to.
Plenty of good low level spells to take advantage of, can control the battlefield with alter self into quite insane forms, or even worse polymorph into stuff with insane supernatural abilities (demons for greater teleport or mirror mephit for simulacrum or with some the caster level increase abuse, a noble genie and give wishes to the party.) At the very least he'll be getting perfect fly speed, and he can make it last all day if he wants to, and it makes him totally un-MAD, since he can disregard physical attributes altogether and simply persist his alter self.
BC, to some degree, stone shape and similar cleric spells can help control the battlefield.
Tanking, Through Prestige paladin you are proficient with all types of armour, so you'll be able to knock yourself out on full-plate and a Heavy Shield, without losing anything.

True he lacks in the army department, but I prefer being a one man army anyway, He can do just about anything, and in 3 levels time he is eons ahead of Mr. Artificer as he is granting 3 free wishes/day to his companions. (Wuts that Mr. Fighter? You's complaining that I don't cast Greater Magic Weapon enough? Here If you wish for a +5 Blah Blah Blah Longsword, can you wish one up for me as well?)

Oh and all this without paying XP and Gold for the spells, he just does it with anything he's got, even if imprisoned in a totally locked down wall of force prison he can get out through summon holy symbol, polymorph into an imp, teleport.

So IMO A cleric can easily fend for himself at these low levels. The wizard is harder pressed but glitterdust, Alter Self, and Black Tentacles let's him do most of the things an artificer can do.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Leram

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2010, 03:38:58 AM »
I didn't, I assumed you would take the different artisan feat (theres one for gp, xp, and time) that reduces the XP cost by 25% also. Doesn't help you until later though, but stacks with Magical Artisan (specific crafting feat, most likely wondrous, which reduces the base gp/xp cost by 25%) for some hardcore breaking wealth by ECL.

*snip*

Cost reducers may sound underwhelming, but stacking them produces some rather ridiculous results. Magical Artisan(Wondrous) with the artisan feats for X*.75*.5*.75 = 28.125% of market price for all wondrous items.
Actually the best feat to apply Magical Artisan to is Bind Elemental since Bind Elemental can be added to any item and further reduces the cost (see the link in my sig).

Bind Elemental is a level 9 feat, competing with landlord if you have access. And I believe you could get the benefit twice by binding an elemental into a wondrous? I didn't really see any formulas about the feat in the book, just a list of example items. You really have no shortage of feats if you're focusing on crafting, unless you want a bunch of metamagic.

borg286

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2010, 12:57:36 PM »
I didn't, I assumed you would take the different artisan feat (theres one for gp, xp, and time) that reduces the XP cost by 25% also. Doesn't help you until later though, but stacks with Magical Artisan (specific crafting feat, most likely wondrous, which reduces the base gp/xp cost by 25%) for some hardcore breaking wealth by ECL.

*snip*

Cost reducers may sound underwhelming, but stacking them produces some rather ridiculous results. Magical Artisan(Wondrous) with the artisan feats for X*.75*.5*.75 = 28.125% of market price for all wondrous items.
Actually the best feat to apply Magical Artisan to is Bind Elemental since Bind Elemental can be added to any item and further reduces the cost (see the link in my sig).

Bind Elemental is a level 9 feat, competing with landlord if you have access. And I believe you could get the benefit twice by binding an elemental into a wondrous? I didn't really see any formulas about the feat in the book, just a list of example items. You really have no shortage of feats if you're focusing on crafting, unless you want a bunch of metamagic.
Does sombody have a link as to how Bind Elemental works.  I understand that an artificer essentially makes a trap in the item and binds the elemental there.  I don't know what service is expected.  I don't know if it's the elemental simply being in the item that makes it better, or if it's the service(make my attacks more deadly) that is desired when binding an elemental to an item.  Why is it recommended that large elementals be bound?  Is the cost reduction based on size, and if so, what does the size of the elemental do to the item?

Bastian

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2010, 05:32:05 PM »
I didn't, I assumed you would take the different artisan feat (theres one for gp, xp, and time) that reduces the XP cost by 25% also. Doesn't help you until later though, but stacks with Magical Artisan (specific crafting feat, most likely wondrous, which reduces the base gp/xp cost by 25%) for some hardcore breaking wealth by ECL.

*snip*

Cost reducers may sound underwhelming, but stacking them produces some rather ridiculous results. Magical Artisan(Wondrous) with the artisan feats for X*.75*.5*.75 = 28.125% of market price for all wondrous items.
Actually the best feat to apply Magical Artisan to is Bind Elemental since Bind Elemental can be added to any item and further reduces the cost (see the link in my sig).

Bind Elemental is a level 9 feat, competing with landlord if you have access. And I believe you could get the benefit twice by binding an elemental into a wondrous? I didn't really see any formulas about the feat in the book, just a list of example items. You really have no shortage of feats if you're focusing on crafting, unless you want a bunch of metamagic.
Does sombody have a link as to how Bind Elemental works.  I understand that an artificer essentially makes a trap in the item and binds the elemental there.  I don't know what service is expected.  I don't know if it's the elemental simply being in the item that makes it better, or if it's the service(make my attacks more deadly) that is desired when binding an elemental to an item.  Why is it recommended that large elementals be bound?  Is the cost reduction based on size, and if so, what does the size of the elemental do to the item?
You have it all wrong. There is no service provided by the elemental, the item simply draws power from the elemental and thus the item is cheaper. There are some items that can't be made without bound elementals but that's not relevant to the cost reduction aspect of bind elemental.

The cost reduction is equal to 5% per size it is above medium (so Colossal elemental give a cost reduction of 20%).

Bastian

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2010, 05:36:09 PM »
Bind Elemental is a level 9 feat, competing with landlord if you have access. And I believe you could get the benefit twice by binding an elemental into a wondrous?
No, you can't get the benefit twice. Similar sources do not stack unless otherwise specified.
Quote
I didn't really see any formulas about the feat in the book, just a list of example items. You really have no shortage of feats if you're focusing on crafting, unless you want a bunch of metamagic.
No, you really do have a shortage of feats. You clearly didn't bother following the link in my sig if you think otherwise.

borg286

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2010, 05:58:16 PM »
Bind Elemental is a level 9 feat, competing with landlord if you have access. And I believe you could get the benefit twice by binding an elemental into a wondrous?
No, you can't get the benefit twice. Similar sources do not stack unless otherwise specified.
Quote
I didn't really see any formulas about the feat in the book, just a list of example items. You really have no shortage of feats if you're focusing on crafting, unless you want a bunch of metamagic.
No, you really do have a shortage of feats. You clearly didn't bother following the link in my sig if you think otherwise.
I think he was saying that there is an over-abundance of feats geared towards to craft enhancements.  You could easily deck yourself out if you were to focus on crafting.

Bastian

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2010, 06:01:56 PM »
Bind Elemental is a level 9 feat, competing with landlord if you have access. And I believe you could get the benefit twice by binding an elemental into a wondrous?
No, you can't get the benefit twice. Similar sources do not stack unless otherwise specified.
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I didn't really see any formulas about the feat in the book, just a list of example items. You really have no shortage of feats if you're focusing on crafting, unless you want a bunch of metamagic.
No, you really do have a shortage of feats. You clearly didn't bother following the link in my sig if you think otherwise.
I think he was saying that there is an over-abundance of feats geared towards to craft enhancements.  You could easily deck yourself out if you were to focus on crafting.
Ah. I miss read what he was saying. However, that is one of the better feats for crafting. Also, I have just got to point out the irony of telling that to the person who compiled a guide to cheap crafting.

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Re: Low level tier 1. Can you beat artificer?
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2010, 06:39:25 PM »
Also, I have just got to point out the irony of telling that to the person who compiled a guide to cheap crafting.
Do you have a link to a nice resource for mundane items you like to always get, or craft yourself?  I'm thinking marbles are the best way to get battlefield control for really cheap.  I know that crafting a masterwork item to helping you craft other things is counterproductive as the whole goal with crafting it yourself is to save a penny.  Are there any items that do not follow this trend(help in crafting and pays for itself somehow)?