Author Topic: Optimized Party Woes  (Read 4734 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2010, 10:18:18 PM »
I'm actually a bit stricter and more conservative than most DMs regarding that. As far as I'm concerned, fluff is RAW too. It's explicitly stated in the description of the class features that an Ur-Priest "steals" divine spells from the Gods. Mechanically it's no different, but it is an explicit indicator of the class. This isn't really the forum to debate whether fluff counts as RAW, but just know that at my table fluff isn't mutable.
My best example is my sigged Priest of the Unseen Host class, which I periodically pimp whenever a discussion like this comes up.

But that seems to be resolved.


I'd also replace the Ur-priest spell slot tomfoolery with a free versatile spellcaster (usable for spontaneous cures or whatnot) instead, simply because it's a really bad mechanic.
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Cuindless

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2010, 10:37:26 PM »
No "Ring of Evasion" for the FL prereq. I don't allow magic items to fulfill requirements. I don't exactly have a RAW reason, it's mostly because if I ever choose to have an enemy destroy the item I'm also choosing to take away some of their powers (in this case, 9th level spellcasting!). That's a position I just don't like to be in.

Green Whisperer does seem sort of unecessary with this new build. What about Lyric Thaumaturge or some other bardic progression? Any suggestions on that?

Endarire

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2010, 10:50:55 PM »
Divine Oracle2 grants full casting to 1 class and Prescient Sense which says, "this form of evasion."
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Cuindless

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2010, 11:09:54 PM »
Eh... I don't know. That sounds cheesy as all heck. Would you guys allow that as fulfilling the Evasion prerequisite?

weenog

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2010, 11:16:15 PM »
Eh... I don't know. That sounds cheesy as all heck. Would you guys allow that as fulfilling the Evasion prerequisite?
Functionally, it's nearly identical to Evasion (the way it differs is actually superior to Evasion, it doesn't care what kind of armor you're wearing).  It even calls itself a form of evasion.  I'd allow it to stand in for Evasion for requisite purposes.

If you're not so sure about the idea of about better versions of existing things standing in as prerequisites, take a look at the Expeditious Dodge feat in Races of the Wild.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2010, 11:20:24 PM »
Eh... I don't know. That sounds cheesy as all heck. Would you guys allow that as fulfilling the Evasion prerequisite?
I think you're asking the wrong crowd. I'd allow the Ring of Evasion. Complete Warrior also says you can qualify for stuff with magic items. Pg 16, or 13, or something like that.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

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[/spoiler]

Cuindless

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2010, 11:40:53 PM »
Good point, Phaedrus. I'm still not going to allow the Ring of Evasion trick. I guess I'll just have to bite the bullette and Rule 0 that one even if it does contradict RAW. I just don't want the added pain of dealing with it. If I have a thief come in and steal his Ring of Evasion, for example, then he could justifiably claim I'm just trying to nerf his character.

As for the idea of Prescient Sense fulfilling the requirements for Evasion... I suppose that does make sense. Thanks for the RAW precedent, Weenog. It's much appreciated. So now it's starting to look like:

Bard5/DivineOracle2/X2/DiscipleOfTheFallen1/SublimeChord1/FochlucanLyrist9

That's a pretty good build. Any ideas for what the "X" should be?


PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2010, 11:47:33 PM »
Fighter 1/Spellsword 1? It depends on what he wants to do, really...

And what is keeping him from entering Disciple of the Fallen faster? A save prereq? He also might want to stick with that till 2nd level for Turn/Rebuke/whatever, so he can use it to power Divine feats.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Cuindless

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2010, 12:08:59 AM »
I guess nothing... that was just an assumption on my part. So Bard5/DivineOracle2/DiscipleOfTheFallen3(?)/SublimeChord1/FochlucanLyrist9. That's a really good build. It even works thematically with fluff. He starts out as a bard. Then, he gets a dose of divine inspiration while researching his latest song or poem about a dead deity of music, whom he decides to serve (seguay into Divine Oracle). After serving as a divine oracle for a while, he discovers that another deity murdered his and stole it's divine power, so he researches a method of stealing power from a divine being (possibly from an Ur-Priest?), thus becoming a Disciple of the Fallen. But... the bardic way still calls to him, so he learns the secrets of the Sublime Chord, only to discover even further that there is a way to join his two paths together. BAM! Fochlucan Lyrist.

You know what, forget running a game for this character, if he doesn't want to play it I will...

weenog

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2010, 12:28:50 AM »
You know what, forget running a game for this character, if he doesn't want to play it I will...
I've heard it said that the subtlest and most effective form of optimization is to play the character your DM wishes he was playing.
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Mixster

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Re: Optimized Party Woes
« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2010, 01:47:09 AM »
You know what, forget running a game for this character, if he doesn't want to play it I will...
I've heard it said that the subtlest and most effective form of optimization is to play the character your DM wishes he was playing.

 :lmao

Well. For an Ur-priest Build, this should work, It uses two flaws so it might not be possible in your campaign. You should be able to throw the wizard levels out and still qualify at level 10 for SC, but I'm not sure:
Human:
Savage Bard 1/Druid 1/Wizard 3/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theuge 1/ Spelldancer 2/Sublime Chord 1/ Fochluran Lyrist 7/ Arcane Caster 2
UR-Priest Caster level: 18
SC Caster Level: 28
Wizard Caster Level: 5
Feats:
1B Spellfocus Evil
1F Combat Casting
1F Dodge
1 Iron Will
3 Mobility
3Wizard Bonus: Improved Initiative
6 Endurance
9 Extend Spell
12 Persistent Spell
15 DMM Persist
18 Open Feat

---

Personally I like the classic Ur-Priest fluff, he is stealing power from a god, how more Macho can you get?

Oh and the spelldancers requirements might be stupid, but it's class features are stupidly good, especially with Persist Spell. Now a wizard can buff him all day by dancing the day before? Awesome. Especially if you are in a party with a Dervish or a Shadow Dancer who also have perform dance at 3rd level, and guess what, you are.

If you allow the Divine Oracle to use his class feature as Evasion, that might work better then, since it's much more feat easy and would make the build a lot easier.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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