Minimum Caster Level (Paladin)

[dither]

A paladin doesn't get spellcasting until 4th level, at which point he has a CL equal to half his level. (I think it would make a hell of a lot more sense to make it level -3, but that might just be me.)

Anyway, let's say I have a paladin who picks up Brew Potion and wants to make a potion of cure light wounds.

I want to make it CL 1 to save money but the DM insists that the minimum CL I can brew the potion at is 2nd, since according to his interpretation, a paladin "never has" a CL 1. I insist that he's being an idiot and that anything that can have a caster level ought be able to cast the spells at whatever level doesn't disqualify it for casting the spell, CL 1 for 1st-level spells, CL 3 for 2nd, etc.

Of course, he counters with "CL 2" being the minimum CL for 1st-level paladin spells.

Is there a rules quote someone can find that says one way or another? I already want to bitch-slap this guy for being an asshat, I just want to know if his asshattery has legitimate rules support. I want to save 25 gp in crafting costs and he's being a bitch.

[Tonymitsu]

Nothing that I can find at the moment contradicts him.
But it's still pretty silly....


But here's a thought:
Tell him that if he plans to enforce paladin item creation that way then you want your extra half a caster level applied to all dependent effects on your odd numbered paladin levels.
Extra half an HP on your cure spells, an extra 30 seconds on your minute/level spells,

[weenog]

You could point out mage slayer and its child feats as possibilities to lower paladin caster level.

Hrmmm... I wonder if you could get your CL into the negative numbers, brew a beneficial potion that doesn't allow a save, have it work backwards and use it as a top notch poison.

[weenog]

Actually, maybe forget for rules to point out that this guy will probably just "interpret" a different way, or Rule 0 out.  Perhaps you should just be straight with him.  "Look, you're the DM and what you say goes, even when you are wrong.  But I'm already taking a loss, here. (insert potion v wand math reduced to cost per use.)  You've got no reason to dig at me for an additional 25 gold; you're being a stupid asshole on purpose.  Would you like to stop that, or would you rather play your spiteful little dominance game with yourself?"

[Saxony]

When you create a potion, you set the caster
level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no
higher than your own level.

A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

The real question is whether or not Paladins can lower their CL to level 1 or not. Your DM's "interpretation" that Paladins can never have less than CL 2 doesn't seem to make any sense in this case. Yes, naturally they cannot have less than CL 2. But when crafting, ANY caster can lower their CL by an arbitrary amount.

It is impossible to draw a clear conclusion on whether or not CL2 is the limit for Paladins to cast 1st level spells. All we know is that Paladins gain spellcasting at level 4 and happen to have CL2 at that point. Paladins could have an unnaturally high CL when they gain 1st level spells, for all we know. The books are silent on this. A possible strategy for dealing with this rules silence is by treating this situation as if it were any other spellcaster brewing a potion. Why make up rules when they are rules already printed intended to be used?

Weenog is correct, however. This really comes down to a matter of what's fun. If having to brew potion at CL 2 is less fun for you, then you should be able to brew it at CL 1. Is this option overpowered? No. Since it's not overpowered and would increase your fun, your DM is being a bad DM by not letting you do it. Remember, DnD is a game first, and a game with rules second. Fun comes first, always. Some rules are stupid. Not every rule should be followed to the letter. If a rule is hampering fun, toss it. It doesn't matter who's right, the DM's responsibility is to provide fun for its players. Period.

[deuxhero]

1: Don't take brew potion, it's cost is horrible.
2: If you want to get wands of lesser restoration at spell level 1, CL 1 play an archivist.

[dither]

1: Don't take brew potion, it's cost is horrible.
2: If you want to get wands of lesser restoration at spell level 1, CL 1 play an archivist.

There are no item shops and the DM is Anti-Haul with handing out treasure.

If I didn't make my own potions, I wouldn't get *any*. Wands are sort of out of the question until Paladin 10.
(Can't even take the feat 'til paladin 12.)

[archangel.arcanis]

I don't think there will be any rules to explicitly help you here Dither. At best you will get the inferences that have been posted.

That being said you want to tell us a bit more about this game? It seems like paladin was a poor tactical choice for this DM's running style, or was the style unknown before hand?

[SorO_Lost]

Here is a good question: Why are you gimping your self and playing as a Paladin rather than the out right superior yet directly thematic Cleric?

Copypaste the cleric's rules over the paladin's rules and call your self a "paladin" as flavor.

[McPoyo]

Take Practiced Spellcaster. Now your caster level is 1/2 paladin levels + 4, max of your character level. You qualify for item creation feats a lot quicker, that way.

[dither]

Paladin was part of the bargain to get into the game at all. He said no to cleric because I tend to play scholarly, non-combat clerics instead of smash-your-face-in clerics and he wanted a more arcade-style game. Full BAB and low-to-no spellcasting was a requirement, and the adventure he wants to run is based on conflict between paladin orders. Essentially lots of paladin vs. paladin action. (lol, watching a gimped fight!)

The campaign alternates between besieging churches and reliquaries and the intrigue that takes place between sieges. Lots of poisonings and backstabbing being carried on. I think I couldn't have done much worse with a rogue (well, except for weak Fortitude and Will).

My main gripe is that I get taken out of combat too quickly and easily, and healing is minimal. Sure, my character always survives (it's a solo game), and with suitably horrific injuries (which I don't mind), but it seems that his NPCs get most of the action, like he's playing against himself. I took Brew Potion as a way to keep myself on my feet more and participate in combat more.

There's plenty of downtime to brew the silly things, and *getting* money isn't so much a problem, I've just been capped by how much I can spend at a given time. Brewing potions at CL 1 would literally double the number of potions I can make during one "upkeep" period.

Take Practiced Spellcaster. Now your caster level is 1/2 paladin levels + 4, max of your character level. You qualify for item creation feats a lot quicker, that way.

Already got that slated for 9th level feat.

[Havok4]

Could you have gone the supermount route? That seems like it would be optimal in this situation.

[McPoyo]

Could always take Battlecaster or whatever from Complete Champion so you can fire off a free quickened cure spell on yourself...

[archangel.arcanis]

I figured you got pigeon holed into paladin instead of even taking something like crusader.

Not sure how else we can help as the DM seems dead set on running it a certain way. Well are the guys you are fighting using nothing better than masterwork equipment? If so are they several levels ahead of you? If not why aren't you looting their bodies as you should for a treasonous paladin? See if you can 'requisition' some healing potions from your church. If they are sending you out they should be keeping you prepared for what they know you will face, and injury is about as guaranteed as it gets.

[dither]

Natch on pigeonholing. Most characters are working with masterwork stuff as far as I know. I do requisition equipment, but there are lots of higher-level paladins that get priority, and requisitioning is the only reason I've got full plate. Potions, as consumables, are in short supply. :/

You know how these holy wars can be. Since it's a solo game and the DM doesn't want to just kill me off, my biggest struggle is just trying to actually contribute. There's only so much I can do -- supermount won't go up stairs. Lots of running, jumping, climbing, squeezing, battles in tight corners. Secret passages and such.

Really, if it weren't for the regular poisonings, rogue would've been a better choice. :/

edit: Well, except I'd have fewer hit points, worse weapons & armor, and no spells at all (see early note about low-to-no magic).

[McPoyo]

Um, what? Horses go up and down stairs all the time. Cows physically cannot go down them, but will go up.

[Rebel7284]

Um, what? Horses go up and down stairs all the time. Cows physically cannot go down them, but will go up.

I think there is still a problem with climbing non-stairs things and squeezing

[Havok4]

That is why the supermount character is a halfling and the mount can fly, but I am guessing that is too far away from what your DM is willing to allow.

[dither]

That is why the supermount character is a halfling and the mount can fly, but I am guessing that is too far away from what your DM is willing to allow.

Bingo.

...so I'm guessing there's no handy quote that undermines his ruling?

Oh well, I guess there are worse things than being overcharged for consumable magic items. >.<

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

when crafting, ANY caster can lower their CL by an arbitrary amount.

This but CL must be atleast 1

Cows physically cannot go down them, but will go up.

What??