Author Topic: On dumping dex on wizards...  (Read 7965 times)

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AfterCrescent

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2008, 09:21:26 PM »
By that very logic, a +1 DC is only a 5% increase in the chance that your spell passes. 15% of the time they'll go first, for an extra 5% of the time that they fail the save?
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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2008, 09:30:51 PM »
By that very logic, a +1 DC is only a 5% increase in the chance that your spell passes. 15% of the time they'll go first, for an extra 5% of the time that they fail the save?
3 init on the class with the highest init to start means that 95% (number pulled out of my ass) of the time that +3 can't change the init order.  That +1 DC can alter the battle in almost every battle.

Likelihood of it coming into play at all...
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2008, 10:46:53 PM »
There are 400 possibilities.

If you roll a 1 the 3 points ahead guy wins on any number.

2, same thing.

3, same thing.

4, 1 ties and highest dex goes first. Same thing.

5 needs a 2.

...

...

...

20 needs a 17.

Possibilities where you lose init: 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 19 + 18 + 17 + 16 + 15 + 14 + 13 + 12 + 11 + 10 + 9 + 8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 = 264/400 = 66%.

Equal init = 50%.

Increased chance of losing init = +16%, or nearly one third higher.

Alternately, chance of winning init = 34% vs 50% or 1/3rd lower.

5% better chance of affecting whatever vs not having a 1/3rd greater chance to be bested by your equal. Hmmm...

And as stated you can get your saves to nat 20 only status without that.

Edit: I must say, it's nice to debate about something constructively, as opposed to the unnamed alternative. :P
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Straw_Man

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2008, 11:04:25 PM »
There are 400 possibilities.

If you roll a 1 the 3 points ahead guy wins on any number.

2, same thing.

3, same thing.

4, 1 ties and highest dex goes first. Same thing.

5 needs a 2.

...

...

...

20 needs a 17.

Possibilities where you lose init: 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 19 + 18 + 17 + 16 + 15 + 14 + 13 + 12 + 11 + 10 + 9 + 8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 = 264/400 = 66%.

Equal init = 50%.

Increased chance of losing init = +16%, or nearly one third higher.

Alternately, chance of winning init = 34% vs 50% or 1/3rd lower.

5% better chance of affecting whatever vs not having a 1/3rd greater chance to be bested by your equal. Hmmm...

And as stated you can get your saves to nat 20 only status without that.

Edit: I must say, it's nice to debate about something constructively, as opposed to the unnamed alternative. :P

I wasn't about to do the math to prove it, so I was just lurking this thread, but you did it  :clap Due diligence deserves a reward. Fu for you.
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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2008, 11:21:59 PM »
Too sleepy to follow the statistics right now, but I trust your math.  My caveat is that in *most* of your battles you have higher init and win with or without the +3, but the +1 DC pretty much always matters.  If you don't face init pimping wizards in at least ~ 5/6 of your battles the DC increase comes into play more.
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Straw_Man

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2008, 11:24:36 PM »

Noob, perhaps you should wait till your awake enough to follow the math. He just proved that the +1 to DC comes up less as a factor than Init  :)
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Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Ubernoob

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2008, 11:35:16 PM »

Noob, perhaps you should wait till your awake enough to follow the math. He just proved that the +1 to DC comes up less as a factor than Init  :)
Only against an enemy with more init.  That includes init boosting wizards.  Everyone else should be lower.  IF you face init pimping wizards in less than 1/3rd of your encounters THEN the DC matters more:
1/3 of encounters times 1/6th of the curve where the +3 matters equals 1/18.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2008, 11:52:37 PM »

Noob, perhaps you should wait till your awake enough to follow the math. He just proved that the +1 to DC comes up less as a factor than Init  :)
Only against an enemy with more init.  That includes init boosting wizards.  Everyone else should be lower.  IF you face init pimping wizards in less than 1/3rd of your encounters THEN the DC matters more:
1/3 of encounters times 1/6th of the curve where the +3 matters equals 1/18.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2008, 12:02:52 AM »
Nice (no sarcasm).  Is my playstyle math coherent?
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2008, 12:11:44 AM »
Depends on opposition. A lot boosts init, it depends on how many foes are smart.
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2008, 12:17:40 AM »
Depends on opposition. A lot boosts init, it depends on how many foes are smart.
To the point that wizards do?
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Straw_Man

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2008, 12:23:03 AM »
Depends on opposition. A lot boosts init, it depends on how many foes are smart.
To the point that wizards do?

Not do, it's can. Your wizard may choose to pump init, but thats a spell resource being used, and in combat, possible actions. Whereas a character thats a Dex monkey with an Initiative focus has it going on all the time.

Noob, are you basing this on an analysis of D&D arena combat, part gaming or ... just pulling numbers out of your ass based on gut?  :)  Real question here, because some of your assumptions seem limited in a polyphonic environment.
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Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Ubernoob

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2008, 01:18:45 AM »
Primarily gaming experience and optimization by the numbers.  IMX 3 points of init on wizards isn't as big a deal as more int.

Can vs Do: Past level 2 my wizards DO use neverskitter in every battle.  I prep 4 a day.  Going first is worth the swift action.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2008, 10:58:38 PM »
I cast my vote for more int. With more int not only do your DCs go up by one, yo get more spells per day (a valuable resourse for a wizard), +1 to all your spellcraft and knowledge checks, and more skill points.

The lack of dex can be compensated for. Spells like mage armor and shield cover AC. Nerveskitter, improved initative, and the hummingbird familiar cover initative. Insightful reflexes and various spells cover your reflex save. Besides once you start polymorphing/shapechanging your natural dex score doesn't manner.

Akalsaris

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2008, 08:59:51 AM »
I'll cast my vote for more Dex for levels 1-10, then more Int for 11-20.

At low levels you're not casting Nerveskitter because you don't have the slots or money, you don't have insightful reflexes because you want the feats to enter your PrC, and a lot of games don't allow Dragon Mag material. You're also using more ranged attacks when you run out of spells, and you need all the AC you can get. 

You can also sidestep the +1 to saves by casting spells like Haste, Web, Invisibility or Summon Monster at low levels.

Straw_Man

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Re: On dumping dex on wizards...
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2008, 03:36:38 PM »

Exactly. I wouldn't dump Dex if it was starting from level 1, but level 5 onwards. No worries, Int all the way!
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."