Author Topic: "Melding' Magic  (Read 3878 times)

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Rekcuf

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"Melding' Magic
« on: May 02, 2010, 10:45:13 AM »
So, in both the DMG and MIC it speaks of melding the properties of two magical items together to make one magical item...  In this DMG, this costs 1.5x the cost, while in the MIC it is only a flat cost....

Does this sound strange to anyone else?  It basically opens up the door for supremely powerful magical items... why would you even need more than 1 magical slot to be filled?

Prime32

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2010, 10:55:52 AM »
MIC only has the flat cost for basic effects.

It's because you need those enhancement bonuses at higher level, but filling all your item slots with +6 items is boring.

There's still the stuff on item slot affinities - no Boots of Charisma for instance.
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Rekcuf

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 10:57:57 AM »
It never says 'no' but that it would most likely not be there.
Even at lower levels, seems a bit rediculous....  Meld all the chronocharms together.  Belt of healing + whatever other belt you could possibly want... etc etc.

McPoyo

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 02:43:55 AM »
Trust me, there's nothing ridiculous or overpwering about it. I've been running games doing that since the MIC was published, and have not had any issues.

From a non-"here's anecdotal evidence" pov, it doesn't increase player power, so much as flexibility. You end up the the party using more than the same 10different items, because they no longer have to decide whether they want 90 more health or +3 to spell DCs, vs a neat or useful ability.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 06:32:14 AM »
Can't you already wear all the chronocharms at once?

Anyway, think about it like this: At most levels (depending on your DM), you'll probably have a small number of magic items. You don't generally have crowding issues until the higher levels, at which point price is less of an issue than body slots. And even then, you're paying 50% more, which is a very significant amount, since any item worth adding onto another is probably expensive.

Let's say you're a Druid and you got 20,000 gold in a good dungeon crawl. You've already got a magical belt, so you consider adding the effects of the Monk's Belt to increase your AC. If you just buy a Monk's Belt to replace your current one, you'll spend 13,000 and have 7,000 left over, for expendables or spell components or an Amulet of Health +2. If you want to just tack the effect on, you'll spend 19500, leaving you with 500 gp to spare. So it's a pretty significant investment to add an effect to an item.

McPoyo

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 06:40:07 AM »
Can't you already wear all the chronocharms at once?

Anyway, think about it like this: At most levels (depending on your DM), you'll probably have a small number of magic items. You don't generally have crowding issues until the higher levels, at which point price is less of an issue than body slots. And even then, you're paying 50% more, which is a very significant amount, since any item worth adding onto another is probably expensive.

Let's say you're a Druid and you got 20,000 gold in a good dungeon crawl. You've already got a magical belt, so you consider adding the effects of the Monk's Belt to increase your AC. If you just buy a Monk's Belt to replace your current one, you'll spend 13,000 and have 7,000 left over, for expendables or spell components or an Amulet of Health +2. If you want to just tack the effect on, you'll spend 19500, leaving you with 500 gp to spare. So it's a pretty significant investment to add an effect to an item.
You can wear one instance of each chronocharm at the same time, already, yes.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2010, 09:27:00 AM »
It only gets funny when you allow charged items (the typical MIC items with three charges) to have tons of more charges. For instance, a Belt of Battle with 20 charges :).
Combining item effects is a dire necessity at higher levels, there's really nothing broken about it.

McPoyo

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2010, 10:01:20 AM »
Especially when you consider WotC already did it (belt of magnificence, all of the +x stat and another power added in items)
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 10:28:20 AM »
Especially when you consider WotC already did it (belt of magnificence, all of the +x stat and another power added in items)
The belt is cheaper too. Buying six +6 items at 36,000gp apiece is 216,000gp rather than the 200,000gp the belt sells for.
Gotta love it when they pay attention to their own guidelines.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 12:56:20 PM »
Especially when you consider WotC already did it (belt of magnificence, all of the +x stat and another power added in items)
The belt is cheaper too. Buying six +6 items at 36,000gp apiece is 216,000gp rather than the 200,000gp the belt sells for.
Gotta love it when they pay attention to their own guidelines.
I think they just wanted it to say below the epic price of over 200000gp.

I also really don't think it's an unbalanced item, because you have to look at WHEN you can potentially afford it, even the lowliest version, which, at 20000gp, IIRC, is already quite expensive, and what your upgrade schemes look like. There are simply very few scenarios where you aren't wasting money, because you already have other items that give enhancement bonuses by the time you can afford the belt (or rather, any of them).

PhaedrusXY

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 02:09:29 PM »
There aren't very many characters that would actually need +6 to every stat, either. Even the most MAD characters usually have at least one stat they don't care too much about... I've never actually gotten one of those belts because even with the "discount", and taking up one item slot, it's never seemed like it is worth the cost.
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 03:38:15 PM »
There aren't very many characters that would actually need +6 to every stat, either. Even the most MAD characters usually have at least one stat they don't care too much about... I've never actually gotten one of those belts because even with the "discount", and taking up one item slot, it's never seemed like it is worth the cost.

I have to agree. Even a Monk, one of the most MAD classes in the game, can probably afford to drop Cha, and the belt's Int bonus won't give more skill points, so a full third of the belt is 'wasted' on a Monk.

Widow

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 05:27:00 PM »
There aren't very many characters that would actually need +6 to every stat, either. Even the most MAD characters usually have at least one stat they don't care too much about... I've never actually gotten one of those belts because even with the "discount", and taking up one item slot, it's never seemed like it is worth the cost.

The only time I have used the belt was with a very epic artificer with money to burn.  It is a funny item to target with the infusion that lets you change the type of bonus the item gives you (Nothing like a corruption or deformity bonus instead of enhancement).  That infusion is usually difficult to use, but then you can effect so many bonuses at once with one casting it was more useful.

I am glad someone else mentioned stacking the same item on itself for more uses.  I never saw anything that said you could not do it.  I also liked to combine multiple greater counterspell rings (orginal Arms and Armor) and the Kiiara spell book stones from faerun.  The only place that this can be abused is if you stack an item that grants an unnamed bonus with itself.  Then again, if multiple night sticks or orange ioun stones are allowed by a DM it does not matter if they are one item or multiple.

Personally I never saw merging items to be a problem as a player or DM.  I actually spend quite abit extra loot making three items do the work of 9 just for style (and throwing in special materials and gems even for wonderous items).  Even in games where merging was not allowed, I don't think I ever ran out of slots.  As someone mentioned above, it is also really lame when the entire party has the same exact gear and won't use good loot drops from the DM because they need their AC or ability stat boost.

My only problem with the merging rules is that it includes the 50% extra on slotless items.  Most slotless items will not have a mechanical benefit from being one item other than weight, so I don't think they should cost extra for merging unless they have an actual benefit from being merged (like maybe two metamagic rods merged that work together on one spell).

McPoyo

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2010, 05:30:21 PM »
Besides, it's easier to shut down items via dispel or disjunction if they are all in one item, instead of several...
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2010, 07:26:20 PM »
Besides, it's easier to shut down items via dispel or disjunction if they are all in one item, instead of several...
Except if it's slotless and you never get LoE to it, because it got put where the sun don't shine :).

McPoyo

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2010, 07:27:37 PM »
Don't need LoE for a blanket dispel...
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2010, 07:29:44 PM »
Don't need LoE for a blanket dispel...
Just for the sake of the argument.... oh you DO!

But you really do need LoE.

McPoyo

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2010, 07:30:41 PM »
Shh! You'll give it away!
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2010, 07:35:33 PM »
Shh! You'll give it away!

Bah, just when I've made certain that there IS an argument FOR sticking stuff up your anus.

McPoyo

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Re: "Melding' Magic
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2010, 07:37:00 PM »
I have an nearly overwhelming desire to sig that out of context...
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]