Author Topic: Most Powerful Combinations  (Read 16480 times)

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Bastian

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2010, 05:32:16 PM »
The two big legs up on the competition the SCM has though are access to mythals pre-epic (easier access really, since anyone can eat up as a Dusk Giant, but only an SCM can emulate the Mythal seed, since it's evocation) and full access to psionic time-fuckery.  While the PS is pimping out 10-1 actions from class features with a moderately to obscenely powerful melee form, the SCM is pimping out the same 10-1 in an infinite loop, smacking the PS around with the same melee form with better buffs (well, the PS thinks it's the SCM, it's actually either his SIM or a BoB), all while also bringing down the buffs on the DK and laughing at the Iot7V burning up his veil uses on cannon fodder (SIM's, BoB's, etc).  It all comes down to free use of already overpowered spells, and ultimately, nothing comes close to an SCM for it.  Even my CL 177 monster chose SCM in lieu of metamagic effect from Incantatrix, and I'm a well known Inca-fanboy.
How exactly does an SCM emulate the Mythal seed pre-epic?

Havok4

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2010, 05:48:43 PM »

How exactly does an SCM emulate the Mythal seed pre-epic?

A SCM can cast epic spells through their shadow magic by using various forms of trickery to get their effective spell level up to 11. Usually through a combination of sanctum spell and earth power.

Anklebite

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2010, 05:58:10 PM »
it goes to 11.
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snakeman830

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2010, 06:18:36 PM »
On a related note, what book is this mythal in?  I've never heard of it before.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Surreal

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2010, 06:24:59 PM »
Looks like Magic of Faerun... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythal
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snakeman830

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2010, 08:26:25 PM »
Seems like that book has no real rules about them.  A shame, since I though it ould be fun to try in a game.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Endarire

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2010, 10:12:44 PM »
Lost Empires of Faerun should have mythal rules.
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Phoenix00

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2010, 03:39:10 PM »
But are mythals wizard/sorc spells.  I am away from my books right now but if I remember mythals like all epic spells are untyped class spells that require an epic feat for you to learn them.  Until you take that epic feat you can't cast epic spells even though you may cast 9th level spellcasting for epic spells aren't on your class list till you take epic spellcasting.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2010, 08:58:02 PM »
But are mythals wizard/sorc spells.
As in it's listed as a wizard/sorcerer spell? No.
As in it's on the wizard/sorcerer's spell list. No.
You may have a point.
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Bastian

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2010, 10:43:59 PM »
But are mythals wizard/sorc spells.
As in it's listed as a wizard/sorcerer spell? No.
As in it's on the wizard/sorcerer's spell list. No.
You may have a point.
I checked the Epic Level Handbook and you can't develop or cast epic spells without the Epic Spellcasting feat. So even if it was on the wizard/sorcerer spell list, which no epic spell is, they still couldn't cast them. Epic spells are cast from epic spell slots, not 10th level spell slots.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 12:28:50 AM by Bastian »

Havok4

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2010, 11:06:21 PM »
But the epic spells count as 10th level spells and the SCM is not casting the epic spell, they are casting silent image which imitates the epic spell. So a SCM can effectively cast epic spells pre epic. But the spell list issue is still a valid point as far as I can see.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #71 on: May 06, 2010, 12:51:51 AM »
But the epic spells count as 10th level spells and the SCM is not casting the epic spell, they are casting silent image which imitates the epic spell. So a SCM can effectively cast epic spells pre epic. But the spell list issue is still a valid point as far as I can see.

That's why like any good wizard we studied at Boccob's Reading Room and bought our dream mythal for 100 gp/spell level (1k for invincibility?  ok!) ;)  Or we just ate up to epic HD, imitated PsyRef, and cast it at DC 0.  Either way, it is very easily done with little to no effort on the caster's part.
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Akalsaris

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2010, 02:51:37 AM »
it goes to 11.

Normal incantatrix's are rocking out as hard as they can when they hit 10, but us, we've still got 1 more to go!

DavidWL

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2010, 03:46:24 AM »
But the epic spells count as 10th level spells

Where does it say that?    A few people are saying (or implying) this, but I don't remember seeing it ...

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2010, 04:29:22 AM »
But the epic spells count as 10th level spells
Where does it say that?    A few people are saying (or implying) this, but I don't remember seeing it ...
Beware, it's poorly worded.
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellLevels
Epic Spell Levels

Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.
It has no set spell level but in any case where it's level is important it's level is 10 which pretty much means it's fixed at 10 don't it? >.>
Anyway, pretty sure other possible situations includes shadow mimicing.

Also, found this as more light on if an epic spell is considered any certain class's spell.
Quote
Once an epic spell is developed, the caster knows the spell. A developed epic spell becomes an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard  is the caster). Characters who cast spells spontaneously, such as sorcerers, can cast a developed epic spell by using any open epic spell slot. Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots.
So they are not.
An Mythal spell isn't a wizard's spell or even Wizard's Bob's class spell. It is a spell known to that character and not from any list.

Edit
Also it's arcane or divine.
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm
An epic spell developed by an arcane spellcaster is arcane, and an epic spell developed by a divine spellcaster is divine. A character who can cast both divine and arcane epic spells chooses whether a particular spell he or she develops will be arcane or divine. If that same caster uses the heal or life seed in an epic spell, that spell is always considered divine.
So if you can find a cast any arcane spell, you could put that to use...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 04:32:47 AM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Anklebite

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2010, 08:10:20 AM »
thats why,

[spoiler]
But the epic spells count as 10th level spells and the SCM is not casting the epic spell, they are casting silent image which imitates the epic spell. So a SCM can effectively cast epic spells pre epic. But the spell list issue is still a valid point as far as I can see.

That's why like any good wizard we studied at Boccob's Reading Room and bought our dream mythal for 100 gp/spell level (1k for invincibility?  ok!) ;)  Or we just ate up to epic HD, imitated PsyRef, and cast it at DC 0.  Either way, it is very easily done with little to no effort on the caster's part.
[/spoiler]

has it covered.  :D
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2010, 12:21:41 PM »
Or we just ate up to epic HD, imitated PsyRef, and cast it at DC 0.  Either way, it is very easily done with little to no effort on the caster's part.
Now it has cease to become a SCM trick and is a generic caster trick. And because it's a constant, we can ignore it when comparing the class combinations.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #77 on: May 07, 2010, 12:49:05 AM »
Or we just ate up to epic HD, imitated PsyRef, and cast it at DC 0.  Either way, it is very easily done with little to no effort on the caster's part.
Now it has cease to become a SCM trick and is a generic caster trick. And because it's a constant, we can ignore it when comparing the class combinations.
Yeah but the Dweomerkeeper & Planar Sheppard's Wish access is also generic by way of Simulacrum to a point the rogue can do it and they still got listed.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #78 on: May 07, 2010, 12:52:53 AM »
Wouldn't the combat all come down to whoever makes the most Ice Assassins of the others?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Littha

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Re: Most Powerful Combinations
« Reply #79 on: May 07, 2010, 01:31:51 AM »
Could you not use wish to emulate a spell cast through SCMs evocation? As in if a SCM emulating a 9th level spell is equal to an 8th level effect (because of earth power etc) then you could use wish to cast the shadow version of the spell that the SCM is using?