Most Powerful Combinations

[OblivionSmurf83]

Hi all,

Just a quick random poll, because I felt like it, to determine which of these class combinations the Min/Max board feels is the most powerful in your average campaign.

Assume both the Wizards have taken Uncanny Forethought, and also Arcane Spellsurge, such that they're basically casting like a Sorcerer.

Assume the Shadowcraft Mage Wizard build has taken Signature Spell, such that he can convert spells into any Evocation, Conjuration(Creation) or Conjuration(Summoning) spell he needs.

Assume the Planar Shepherd has taken either a broken time trait plane, or a plane with tons of Outsider forms (such as all Devil or Demon forms), but not both. Assume further that you can put anything you like in the final 5 levels of the build, such as a 1 level dip in Cleric for Divine Metamagic.

Assume the Cleric has taken Initiate of Mystra, and Divine Metamagic. Assume further that you can put anything you like in the final 5 levels of the build.

Assume the Chameleon has taken Divine Metamagic, and Uncanny Forethought, and has exploited a trick to get dual 9s. Assume he has Dark Chaos Shuffled his Swordsage Weapon Focus feats, so he's not light on feats. Assume further that you can put anything you like in the final 5 levels of the build.

Happy Voting!

[SorO_Lost]

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Free Miracles, all buffs the party can cast persisted and extended for free, some of which are probably invisible, empowered, & maximized anyway. Like Prismatic Sphere if you wanted to gimp your self like IotSF.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 8/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
People say you can cast out of your indigo veil. Prismatic Wall doesn't work like that nor does the indigo entry (both state all spells). I'm not even sure where the idea you can cast though your indigo veil came from outside of secondhand information provided by an anonymous source claiming to have spoken to the writer of the class as proof that it's intended to cast though it. Even if it did, see above.

Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/X 5
While powerful, they either die from old age in seconds due to the player forgetting to play as an elan or undead, or are just a druid against anything close to them (forgot the range of the planar ability) and while that is powerful they still die against pretty much any half-optimized damager.

Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/X 5
Free Miracles and DMM(persist) for 2 or 3 free persisted spells a day, what could be better? Oh yeah...

Cleric 3/Wizard 1/Swordsage 1/Chameleon 10/X 5
Meh. Lot of assumptions and dirty tricks to reach dual 9s and those feats.
Incantatrix/Shadowcraft work exactly as intended, no misreading, no use this and this and this and this and this and this etc. Metamagic + Earth Spell is all it needs and poof, it has 8th level divine spells, any 7th level arcane, and loads of others and pretends to spontaneously cast everything. Also 5th level maneuvers if you cared to get into it with items.

And that's what I think.

[Negative Zero]

The main reason I voted for the SCM Wizard instead of the Planar Shepherd is because Planar Bubble can be replaced by carrying around a native of the plane you want and casting the Planar Bubble Spell, and because a Reserves of Strength Shapechange is far more powerful than Wild Shape.

Also, what SorO said.

[OblivionSmurf83]

Really interesting results guys, seems like the Incantatrix/Shadowcraft Mage and the Planar Shepherd seem to be the favoured candidates for most players. Clearly, what we ideally need is some sort of (more) magical Druid/Planar Shepherd with Divine Metamagic, and the ability to cast Silent Image!

[Littha]

I think the big point of Planar Shepard is the wildshaping into creatures that grant wish at will... Planar bubble is nice too though.

[bearsarebrown]

Planar Shepard. Most of a SCM's tricks can be replicated by some SLA out there. And 10 full round actions per round is about the best action economy you can get.

[SorO_Lost]

I'd like to revise my previous statment. I feel as if the Planar Shepherd gets too much love Was not away a spell gave better benefits than the class abilities of the most broken druid PrC.

Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/X 5
While powerful, they either die from old age in seconds due to the player forgetting to play as an elan or undead, or you realize anything that comes within 20ft. of you gain the same "bonus" and even a moderately optimized meleer can knock 400hp away without much effort, also the duration is concentration so you can move or you can cast (assuming you spend a feat on that) thought the extra rounds does make up for it.

Check out the SpC, page 128. It's Planar-Sheppard-In-A-Jar-OK-Really-On-A-Metal-Bug, and the incantatrix can persist/extend it granting them everything broken about the the Sheppard's class abilities with a smaller area and said area can work independently of you if you choose to you could have it stand behind you and melee a guy for 8 rounds before moving away and back. And none of the drawbacks like can't cast without a feat and then you can't move when you do so somehow it has even more actions than something moving at ten times the normal rate before talking about Time Stop & Celerity.

[Fluffles]

I'd like to revise my previous statment. I feel as if the Planar Shepherd gets too much love Was not away a spell gave better benefits than the class abilities of the most broken druid PrC.

Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/X 5
While powerful, they either die from old age in seconds due to the player forgetting to play as an elan or undead, or you realize anything that comes within 20ft. of you gain the same "bonus" and even a moderately optimized meleer can knock 400hp away without much effort, also the duration is concentration so you can move or you can cast (assuming you spend a feat on that) thought the extra rounds does make up for it.

Check out the SpC, page 128. It's Planar-Sheppard-In-A-Jar-OK-Really-On-A-Metal-Bug, and the incantatrix can persist/extend it granting them everything broken about the the Sheppard's class abilities with a smaller area and said area can work independently of you if you choose to you could have it stand behind you and melee a guy for 8 rounds before moving away and back. And none of the drawbacks like can't cast without a feat and then you can't move when you do so somehow it has even more actions than something moving at ten times the normal rate before talking about Time Stop & Celerity.

128? Jungle's Rapture? Nope. Kelpstrand? Nope. Kiss of the Vampire? Nuh uh.

And those are the only 3 spells on 128.

[skydragonknight]

Planar Shepherd can free wishes, while Shadowcraft mage has shadow miracles. Wish and Miracle can pretty much replicate any relevant spell of 8th level or lower, so the real points of comparison should be 9th level spells, unique abilities that can't be gained from Shapechange(which they both have access to), and the ability to serve multiple roles.

Incantrix/Shadowcraft Mage has buffs that last all day, but the Planar Shepherd can grab as many buff rounds as he wants, so it's really a matter of just what's uniquely available to each of them.

[Ithamar]

I think he meant pg. 158 of SpC for Planar Bubble.

[Havok4]

I think he meant pg. 158 of SpC for Planar Bubble.

The trick is counting as a native of any given plane, possible methods include being resurrected on that plane, using fusion with someone from that plane, or finding some template or item that lets you could as being from that plane like the collar of umbral metamorphosis which makes you a native of the plane of shadow.

[Nunkuruji]

Symbiots from another plane?

[skydragonknight]

Alienist dip is nice. Summon Monster I + Planar Bubble is like a Time Stop for rounds/level.

[Solo]

Alienist dip is nice. Summon Monster I + Planar Bubble is like a Time Stop for rounds/level.

The Far Realm does not work like that. The Far Realm is a place of madness. The inhabitants of the Far Real carry with them the Far Realm's far madness far beyond their far plane far far far far farfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarfarf

[dark_samuari]

I think there's something to be said though for the simplicity in a Druid 5/Planar Shepard 10/X 5 build, it's just so wrapped up and easy to use...

[PhaedrusXY]

Planar Shepherd can free wishes, while Shadowcraft mage has shadow miracles.

The dweomerkeeper can cast both for free, if he wants... with the right domain(s). As well as any other spell they want (XP and gp free Similacrum? No problem. Dread Warriors? I can make 4 per day for free. Any arcane or divine spell 8th level or below as a standard action? I can do that.). And ignore SR with them, which includes "magic immunity". I think the dweomwerkeeper is being severely underrated here.

And nothing was said about the Shadowcraft Mage taking Arcane Disciple for Miracle access, anyway. And it is dubious if that even works in the first place. Arcane Disciple doesn't turn it into a Wizard/Sorcerer spell IMO, which is required to emulate it with Shadow Illusion.

Almost any caster can emulate the fast time trick of the Planar Shepard with spells (Planar Bubble + Summon Monster/Polymorph, IIRC).

[skydragonknight]

Hmm...I guess there need to be two points of comparison: How the builds compare "out of the box" and how they compare when "fully optimized".

[Fluffles]

Planar Shepherd can free wishes, while Shadowcraft mage has shadow miracles.

The dweomerkeeper can cast both for free, if he wants... with the right domain(s). As well as any other spell they want (XP and gp free Similacrum? No problem.). And ignore SR with them, which includes "magic immunity". I think the dweomwerkeeper is being severely underrated here.

And nothing was said about the Shadowcraft Mage taking Arcane Disciple for Miracle access, anyway. And it is dubious if that even works in the first place. Arcane Disciple doesn't turn it into a Wizard/Sorcerer spell IMO, which is required to emulate it with Shadow Illusion.

Almost any caster can emulate the fast time trick of the Planar Shepard with spells (Planar Bubble + Summon Monster/Polymorph, IIRC).

Be careful with that though, your DM might throw Mithral/Adamantine golems at you. And thier Immunity doesn't have the infinite SR clause.

[PhaedrusXY]

Be careful with that though, your DM might throw Mithral/Adamantine golems at you. And thier Immunity doesn't have the infinite SR clause.

I can fly/teleport/whatever. They can't. I don't care.

Seriously... that's your argument?

[Endarire]

Starting around level 7, as a Wizard, I expect to be flying in combat almost all the time.  I have alter self, fly, polymorph, and maybe an item that grants me flight.  Non-fliers only bother me in cramped quarters.