Author Topic: Control Water: what is it actually good for?  (Read 6653 times)

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Tonymitsu

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 01:17:52 AM »
The thing that always bothered me the most about this spell is the way the "Area" portion is written.

Every other spell I can think of that affects large volumes say "Up to X feet" or "maximum of X inches/level" or something similar.

Control Water just has a set number of cubic feet, which leads me to believe it only works on large volumes.

For that matter when you raise water, where does the new water come from?  Lower water states that the water moves the surrounding terrain out of the way for the duration, but how?  Does the water float?
Also the wording in the beginning on lower water is kind of wonky to me too.

"This causes water or similar liquid to reduce its depth by as much as 2 feet per caster level (to a minimum depth
of 1 inch)."
Does that mean I could lower the water only an inch if I wanted?  Or that regardless of my caster level I have to leave at least 1 inch of depth there (meaning I can't eliminate it completely)?
This actually came up in a game I had once where our cleric tried to get rid of the pool a water elemental was using as cover to hide in.

But some things to point out:
Quote
1.The human body is 80% water or something like that.
Quote from: Player's Handbook
When cast on water elementals and other water-based creatures, this spell acts as a slow spell (Will negates). The spell has no effect on other creatures.

Quote
If it works on liquified forms of precious metals (gold, platinum, obdurium), it rocketh.
Not surprisingly, the "Target" entry specifically calls out water, and only water.  But the description of the spell says "or similar liquid".

 :banghead


snakeman830

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2010, 10:50:43 AM »
Control Water does not specify an exact number of cubic feet.  It affects a volume of water that is 10ft/level * 10ft/level * 2ft/level (verticaly).  It's the only spell I know of where the affected volume increases exponentially.
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Surreal

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2010, 02:40:00 PM »
So at 20th level that's about the equivalent surface area of a football field. Hmm, if you turn that volume sideways, I could totally see you being able to make it across the red sea... although duration might be an issue.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2010, 02:46:13 PM »
Research a permanent version and build the equivalent of an underwater base made of water and live in the permanent air pockets?

Edit: Spell is a bit limited. It would be like a box of air in the middle of the water. Still could be useful.

There seriously needs to be a "Shape Water" spell.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 03:00:55 PM by skydragonknight »
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McPoyo

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2010, 04:43:22 PM »
Research a permanent version and build the equivalent of an underwater base made of water and live in the permanent air pockets?

Edit: Spell is a bit limited. It would be like a box of air in the middle of the water. Still could be useful.

There seriously needs to be a "Shape Water" spell.
Dwarf Fortress building with blocks of Water, clearly.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2010, 04:58:15 PM »
Seems like a "no save-die" for navel combat.

I think you mean Naval.


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McPoyo

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2010, 05:01:07 PM »
Seems like a "no save-die" for navel combat.

I think you mean Naval.
Damnit, I totally didn't catch that, and thought he was talking about navel combat. I was confused as hell. Naval makes much more sense.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

nijineko

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2010, 06:05:36 PM »
much more useful in second ed where you could then cast chain lightnings into the affected water and lay waste to every monster in a castle.... or at least in the lower levels. ^^ or so one friend of mine related.

since vessels slide down the sides... you could get in some nice surfing.

good for crossing moats...

or entering castles and other near river/moat/water if you have a means of moving through water....

good for battlefield control in some limited circumstances, and depending on the abilities available to each side....

could be fun in conjunction with one or more decanters of endless water....

make a nifty fountain or sudden deluge effect (water park anyone?) with a hemisphere version of a wall of force upside down and filled with water... oh wait, that's the old version wasn't it?

when used in conjunction with stronghold builders guidebook, small flying structures (only one to four stronghold spaces in size), and endless sources of water mentioned in said supplement, it could be used as an unusual siege weapon via dumping large volumes of water on to given areas (controllable by moving the flying structure about).

did you want more ideas?
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2010, 09:13:02 PM »
In my first session of our gestalt game I used this spell to considerable effect.

First off, I wasn't a PC. I arrived unannounced to my home group's session (I am at college, 2 1/2 hours away from home) during a weekend when I happened to be home. As all of you know gestalt characters take a while to create. They were 5th lvl, which isn't a lot of work but it would've killed the session to stop and make a character for me.

So instead the GM put me in charge of the NPCs. Another player in my exact same circumstance also played an NPC, but she was one of my lackeys. My character was a Yuan-ti abomination cleric, worshipped as a god by a tribe of lizardfolk that had come up against the PCs.

The PCs were in a swamp, camped out, defending against guerilla tactics from the lizardfolk tribe. The lizardfolk were losing.

My first move was to plan a routine strike, but remove the PC's advantages. So I stayed REALLY far away (Whatever the range of Control Water and a tree-controlling spell I used allowed) so that they couldn't get line of sight on me (They had an archer who could shoot out to a mile and do damage like a machine gun).

I sent archers in to surround the PCs at a distance. These archers were led by the other player who didn't have a gestalt character. I don't remember the name of the spell I used first, but it allowed me to move trees to some extent. So I slither up a tree, at an incredible distance from the PCs, cast the spell that opens the trees up in a line to the PCs in order to gain line-of-sight on them, cast control water, and then the trees would close back up so no one could fire back at me. I used the "raise water" part, and brought the waters of the swamp up around them. My lizardfolk archers moved in and shot every PC who swam to the surface or out the sides.

We scored no kills, but the water eventually fell and splashed out into the swamp, completely wrecking their camp and losing most of their gear (Which still mattered to some of them at that level).

The PCs could not gain a good night of rest due to lack of a suitable camp and gear nor could they let their guard down because I kept scouts watching them.

My next move was a magnification of the previous tactic. The water itself was a great battlefield controller but my NPC offense was still limited. So I next sent scouts out in several directions.

One group went to the camp of nearby giants (I don't remember if they were hill or stone giants) and, using a fireball that I had provided for them via item creation, fireballed the nursery. They then taunted the giants so that the giants would give chase. Of course I made sure my lizardfolk scouts looked liked the PCs first.

Another group went to an area of the swamp where we knew some prehistoric crocodiles (I believe they were called megalodons?) resided, and started chumming the water in between the megalodons and the PCs. "Chumming" is where you throw bloody meat into the water in order to attract predatory aquatic creatures.

Yet another group went to a nearby cave to draw out the local hydra. They managed it, but the hydra mostly failed to matter.

The giants arrived at the PC camp first and engaged the PCs. As soon as that happened I executed the same spell combination (Open trees from a distance, cast control water, close trees) and soon after the megalodons showed up. In the water the PCs had to deal with giant crocodiles and giants (The giants were as hindered by the water as the PCs), outside the water they had to deal with lizardfolk archers and giants.

Two PCs almost drowned, a couple others weren't handling the constant assault well, and one of them ended up calling in a favor from a god to get the part out. That favor cost him, although not near as much as I would have liked, it did cost him.

I was planning another similar assault when the session ended. At that point the PCs were running out of everything that required rest to recover, and they were starting to take penalties for not sleeping. I didn't return the following week (Or for a few sessions, due to school) but it's my understanding that they retreated from the swamp, which was all the lizardfolk had ever wanted anyway.

The spell has its uses. Now all of the things I did aren't necessarily within the realm of PC ability (I was 9 or 10 levels into cleric, the GM didn't give me a character sheet so I just used spells mostly), but if there is water around control water is a pretty decent BFC spell. Even if an enemy has a swim speed they have to decide whether to fight in or out of water and just being in water is a pretty severe hindrance. In a naval campaign it could be fun to bury the enemy ship in water (It'll move just about everything on the ship from useful to useless and screw up the crew) or if you're just in a swamp a lot of stuff isn't actually aquatically optimized.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 09:18:48 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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deuxhero

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2010, 01:42:42 AM »
Seems like a "no save-die" for navel combat.

I think you mean Naval.

Yes I did.

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2010, 03:31:16 PM »
Seems like a "no save-die" for navel combat.

I think you mean Naval.
Damnit, I totally didn't catch that, and thought he was talking about navel combat.
My wife and I engaged in some navel combat this morning.  :lol
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Surreal

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2010, 04:31:19 PM »
Attack from the starboard side with the sun to your back, and if your maneuverability is greater then sweep to stern!
---
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Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
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Architect

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2010, 04:14:06 PM »
Research a permanent version and build the equivalent of an underwater base made of water and live in the permanent air pockets?

Edit: Spell is a bit limited. It would be like a box of air in the middle of the water. Still could be useful.

There seriously needs to be a "Shape Water" spell.
Dwarf Fortress building with blocks of Water, clearly.

That would be interesting, should you come under siege. All of the dwarves strap themselves down by chains, hold their breath and let the spell diminish. And now the enemy is being washed away.... Excellent.
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Surreal

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2010, 04:23:06 PM »
Pfft, a true dwarf would simply resist the water's bull rush attempt.
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Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

McPoyo

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2010, 04:25:00 PM »
Pfft, a true dwarf would simply USE MAGMA
ftfy
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Architect

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2010, 04:28:39 PM »
Of course, I am thinking about the dwarven civilizations that are composed of questionable dwarves--obviously.
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McPoyo

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2010, 04:37:16 PM »
Of course, I am thinking about the dwarven civilizations that are composed of questionable dwarves--obviously.
You mean ELVES???
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Architect

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2010, 04:40:21 PM »
I'm quite certain that those humans with hereditary dwarfism would resent that statement, McPoyo.
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McPoyo

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2010, 04:42:06 PM »
Well if they stopped bein' pansy tree-huggin' hippies, maybe they wouldn't get called derogatory names like that! No proper dwarf doesn't love MAGMA! Armok demands it!
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Architect

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Re: Control Water: what is it actually good for?
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2010, 04:48:42 PM »
Do they take a shot of... holy water... after every use of MAGMA?

"To Armok!... hic..."
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