Author Topic: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?  (Read 12759 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

duncandun

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
Hey BG. How have you guys been? In the DND campaign i've been playing my character just died! after 6 months(would have been alot longer than that if I had not died) of playing him, with little or no thoughts of creating a new character. Which is a first for me, I have what MMO players often refer to as altitis. I tend to get bored very quickly(3 months is the longest i've ever played a character prior to this). Which leads me to making tons of new characters! Anyway, I died yesterday evening, TOD was around 3:31 PM.

I was playing a melee cleric (CC5/ODC3/BK5). Recently in the campaign the DM stripped us of all of our magical equipment, and at the time all I had was a +1 prismatic warhammer(that he randomly rolled for, hence the +1 prismatic). Well, I still had my buffs, he basically made a bunch of hextorians seek me out to have my character challenged by their champion. He had alot of nice magic items(like a spell reflecting shield), fire resistance 30, etc. Oh and he was a warblade. So, basically he had like 37 AC, +30 something to hit, and 170 HP. I had (buffed) 19 ac, 24 to hit, and 150 hp.

Other problem was that I wasn't allowed to buff prior to the duel starting. so I was at a huge disadvantage as I needed to cast about 5 buffs to really be able to fight this guy(normally I cast divine power, righteous might, girallons blessing, greater magic weapon/magic vestment) Only had time to get the first three down, and I was hurting alot.

I think I would have beat him but he used some manuevers that denied me my next standard action(which was going to be Heal), so he had me down 100 hp at the 6th round of combat, and I had him down ~120(mostly from blade barrier), problem is he hit like a truck. So at the point where i was down 100 hp, I was planning on casting Heal next round. Nope. Denied me my next standard, so I basically sat there(couldn't really run because of my blade barrier) and waited to die. Next round he full attacked with the lowest of his attacks having +20 to hit or something, so basically He just smashed my face in.

Also, before you ask... I tried doing a save or die(plane shift, best I had with only a will save...), but his will save was over +16, and I know his fort was also ridiculous, oh and his reflex was like +19, it was ridiculous.

Regardless, I died, the end. Goodbye The Demon(as my party members had come to call him, mostly due to his appearance, 4 arms, bone armor, large size, etc), may you battle eternally on the planes of Acaris. Forgot to say that the fight was for keeps and Hextor got to claim my soul if I were to fall to his champion.

So anyway, i just wanted to tell that story before I got into the actual point of my post.

I wanna play a Shadow Sun Ninja.

Originally, I was thinking a rogue-y SSN. With lots of sneak attack damage to compliment the crazy amount of attacks I can get from GFlurry and TWF with unarmed strikes. However given the fact that starting level is 12, and will likely be 12 for quite a while. I don't see a good way to do that and also incorporate as much SSN as possible.

On to the goodies

Stats:
18
16
14
12
10
no particular order

starting level:12

Starting gold:20000

LA races allowed? yes, nothing 'crazy' as my DM would say(IE no feelie fay venerable dragonwrought jungle kobolds)

LA buyoff allowed? No

Books allowed? Pretty much everything. Including dragon magazines. However no third-party books without previous inspection by the DM.


So, a little 'maybe?' build I had come up with.
(if fractional BAB is allowed)
Whisper Gnome
Swordsage1/Monk2/Swordsage1/SSN7/Swordsage1

With this, I'd have a BAB of 9, 6th level manuevers, -0/0 Flurry(however no greater flurry yet), uhh... bunch of bonus feats... SSN stuff.

Yeah, I guess I'd stay in assassins stance for the SA? Not sure if It is worth it.

also, with the correct feats, and if I can convince my DM that the monk unarmed damage increasing things(Monks belt, superior unarmed strike, monks tattoo) all stack, then My damage would also be ...decent, at either 2d8 or 2d10.

Right now my DM says 'no' to monk level unarmed damage increasing abilities, stacking.

Anyway, If you guys could give a hand with this build(either by posting SA heavy/moreroguey type builds, or more monkish builds) I would greatly appreciate it!

quick question as well, I've seen Swordsage and Unarmed Strike variant thrown around alot on these boards. However I can't find mention of it in the TOB. If anyone could clarify this for me that would be great!

Bloody Initiate

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
    • Email
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 03:51:21 PM »
The Unarmed Swordsage variant is on page 20 of Tome of Battle under "Adaptation".

Things that boost monk's unarmed damage DO stack (Most of them even say so last I looked) but the issue eventually becomes that you cap the damage at 2d10 so you'll want to look into some Mighty Wallop or something else that improves natural attacks (That is one of the favorite tricks of the members of these boards, I'm not as good at it yet)

I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.

duncandun

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 03:57:06 PM »
The Unarmed Swordsage variant is on page 20 of Tome of Battle under "Adaptation".

Things that boost monk's unarmed damage DO stack (Most of them even say so last I looked) but the issue eventually becomes that you cap the damage at 2d10 so you'll want to look into some Mighty Wallop or something else that improves natural attacks (That is one of the favorite tricks of the members of these boards, I'm not as good at it yet)



I see, I guess I didn't notice because it's not really a ACF or variant or anything.

Anyway, I haven't been able to find the specific mentionings of Monks belt/sup US stacking. I'm not sure where your getting that.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2010, 04:27:48 PM »
your DM is a douche.

anyways, stack up the size increases to unarmed damage, and go to town. 12d8 base damage per attack should show him. make sure to take tomb tainted soul for infinite healing.

unarmed swordsage6/fist of the forest3/shadowsun ninja3 would work. for feats, take tomb tainted soul, Imp natural attack, superior unarmed strike, and whatever else you want.

I can't remember the pre-reqs to SSN, but if you can get in at level 5, go swordsage5/SSN4/fist of the forest3 instead.

as a word of warning, look up fist of the forest first and make sure it's flavor agrees with your character. for items, see if you can get a monk's belt and a monk's tattoo.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Leram

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • Email
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2010, 04:51:12 PM »
make sure to take tomb tainted soul for infinite healing.

Opposed alignment requirements, alternatively you could grab therapeutic mantle with a feat and that would get you infinite healing.......slowly.

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2010, 04:55:22 PM »
The earliest entry to Shadow Sun Ninja I see would be Swordsage 4/SSN X. You need to use that feat from Cityscape to get that 8th rank in Hide early.

I guess you could get in with a human Crusader or Warblade 3, if you used the skill point quickstep and spent your feats on Martial Study, but that seems pretty unrealistic (you have to buy a scroll of PAO, and pay for a PsyRef, and you're using up basically all of your feats to get into this PrC, to squeeze out one extra level).

It's not an incredible prestige class, but it's a fun one.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2010, 04:58:33 PM »
make sure to take tomb tainted soul for infinite healing.

Opposed alignment requirements, alternatively you could grab therapeutic mantle with a feat and that would get you infinite healing.......slowly.
Necropolitan doesn't have an alignment requirement, though.  It might be worth looking into.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2010, 05:02:59 PM »
make sure to take tomb tainted soul for infinite healing.

Opposed alignment requirements, alternatively you could grab therapeutic mantle with a feat and that would get you infinite healing.......slowly.
Necropolitan doesn't have an alignment requirement, though.  It might be worth looking into.

Undeath (and the immunity to con damage that results) makes SSN's capstone much better.
However, d12 HD and no con score does not help out a melee character.

duncandun

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 05:09:04 PM »
Flavor wise, I was thinking a good-aligned assassin. Basically. SSN fits that theme roughly, espescially with the 'conflicting' nature of SSN(ie good and evil). Of being a hired killer, even if it's only evil targets or something.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2010, 05:19:02 PM »
you should still enter with swordsage5, for the extra stance and +1 to initiative.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

duncandun

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2010, 07:25:35 PM »
If I wanted to do some maxing of Sneak attack damage and still keep SSN what would be the best route to do so?

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2010, 07:47:34 PM »
I actually just made a shadow sun ninja for an optimization challenge (and won 1st place!).  Here's the link to the character - he's basically all about jumping out of shadows to punch somebody in the face.  Scroll down a bit past the character history for the sheet, and it can give you an idea of what to build for.

See if you can convince your DM otherwise on monk damage stacking though - without it your damage will be pretty gimped. 

Damage stacking:
Monk's Belt - 13K for +5 levels to armor and damage, and +1 stunning fist
Monk's Tattoo - 80K for +4 levels to armor, damage, and speed
Superior Unarmed Strike feat - +4 levels to damage

With this, a standard Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 8 would have 20th level damage (2d10), while Unarmed Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 8 wouldn't need the the monk's tattoo.

Size stacking:
Battlefist (EBCS) and Iron Arm (MoE) - 3.6K for +1 monk size, gain a slam attack and counts as piercing/blunt and +1
Improved Natural attack (unarmed strike) feat - +1 size.
Fanged ring - 10K (Dragon Magic) for a ring that grants Improved Natural attack (unarmed strike) and 1 con damage/hit (saves a feat!)
Permanent Enlarge Person - 3.2K or so for +1 size
Wand of Mighty Wallop - about 3K (I forget) for +1 size

With all this, damage goes to 12d8 or 16d8, I forget.

Fist damage (other):
Tooth of Leraje (ToM) - 20K to make your fists +5 weapons for 24 hours/day
Necklace of Natural Attacks +5 (Savage Species) - 49K to add +1 and 4 levels of special abilities such as holy and transmuting.

Stealth and sneak attack maxing:
Craven feat for +level to sneak attack damage.  So swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 1 with Assassin's Stance would deal 2d6+6 per hit
Dark Stalker so blindsight, blindsense, scent, tremorsense all fail to detect you
Ring of the Darkhidden (MIC) - 2K so that darkvision also fails to detect you
Assassination ability here: Enchant your fists with it for another +1d6 sneak attack, plus it grants poison use and +X to poison DC, where X is your fist bonus.  So +5 to poison DC with a Tooth of Leraje.

Praef

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 101
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2010, 03:32:31 AM »
I recently started playing one.  The twist is that he doesn't really do too much damage.  Instead, using setting sun maneuvers, he positions everyone where he wants them.  Like checkers.  Oh, and he's tiny. 

Basically, its monk2/ss3/ssn10...  There's a monk variant for halflings in the Champions of Valor web enhancement (?) that lets them take underfoot combat at 1st level and improved trip at second.  At 9th, he qualifies for Confound the big folk, letting him use dex to trip, along with other fun tactical options.  Till then, Tomb tainted soul works splendid with ssn.

Pretty much the best martial support character I've yet made.

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2010, 11:48:56 AM »
Tomb-Tainted Soul requires nongood alignment.  Shadow Sun Ninja requires Good alignment.  The two are mutually exclusive.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2010, 02:21:40 AM »
And yet, so many of us ignore stupid alignment fluff...

Seriously though, Shadow Sun Ninja is all about balance - they should be neutral, not good.  They drain levels, for goodness sake!

Unbeliever

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 766
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2010, 02:25:30 AM »
Tomb-Tainted Soul requires nongood alignment.  Shadow Sun Ninja requires Good alignment.  The two are mutually exclusive.
What do you really need tomb-tainted soul for?  Unlimited between combat healing, right?  Just grab a friendly undead from somewhere -- have a friendly wizard or someone UMD you a little skeleton you keep in a bag of holding. 

snakeman830

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3494
  • BG's resident furry min/maxxer
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2010, 10:03:24 AM »
I remember reaing a suggestion somewhere that you ask your party wizard to animate a toad skeleton that you just keep in your pocket.  Dump the negative energy into it and heal everyone else.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Tonymitsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2010, 04:12:06 PM »
I think I would have beat him but he used some manuevers that denied me my next standard action(which was going to be Heal)

Though I can't offer anything else terribly helpful or relevant here, I did notice this.

The maneuver in question is Irresistible Mountain Strike.
6th level Stone Dragon maneuver.  Assuming this was a correctly built NPC, that means he had at least 11 Initiator levels.
And a +30 something to hit?  Assuming no dips for spellcasting an full BAB for a 13th level NPC (to tie you) means 13 BAB + 4 for a magic weapon appropriate for this WBL (with no other bonus), I'll assume a +2 size bonus for a properly made melee character, and let's assume a +6 morale/insight/profane/something bonus from any number of buff spells a champion of Hextor could have cast on him.  You didn't mention size so I'll assume he didn't have one.

That gets us to +25 to hit, so we have to make up the rest with strength which let's again assume... 18 base + 2 inherent from levels + 4 enhancement at this level + 2 size gives us 26 for a + 8 Strength mod which puts the NPC at +33 to hit.

The point of all this is that Irresistable Mountain Strike allows a Fort save to ignore it's effects of DC 16 + Strength mod (8 in this case) for a DC 24.
Most cleric builds at 13 could probably make that.  Were you even allowed a save?



Anyway... everyone else is right.  Nearly all monk unarmed damage increases stack by RAW, simply because most of them explicitly state they do stack.  If the DM wants to house-rule otherwise then that's his call and in that case you might want to consider something else.
Akalsaris pretty much has you covered for unarmed damage mauling.

duncandun

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2010, 03:04:59 AM »
I think I would have beat him but he used some manuevers that denied me my next standard action(which was going to be Heal)

Though I can't offer anything else terribly helpful or relevant here, I did notice this.

The maneuver in question is Irresistible Mountain Strike.
6th level Stone Dragon maneuver.  Assuming this was a correctly built NPC, that means he had at least 11 Initiator levels.
And a +30 something to hit?  Assuming no dips for spellcasting an full BAB for a 13th level NPC (to tie you) means 13 BAB + 4 for a magic weapon appropriate for this WBL (with no other bonus), I'll assume a +2 size bonus for a properly made melee character, and let's assume a +6 morale/insight/profane/something bonus from any number of buff spells a champion of Hextor could have cast on him.  You didn't mention size so I'll assume he didn't have one.

That gets us to +25 to hit, so we have to make up the rest with strength which let's again assume... 18 base + 2 inherent from levels + 4 enhancement at this level + 2 size gives us 26 for a + 8 Strength mod which puts the NPC at +33 to hit.

The point of all this is that Irresistable Mountain Strike allows a Fort save to ignore it's effects of DC 16 + Strength mod (8 in this case) for a DC 24.
Most cleric builds at 13 could probably make that.  Were you even allowed a save?



Anyway... everyone else is right.  Nearly all monk unarmed damage increases stack by RAW, simply because most of them explicitly state they do stack.  If the DM wants to house-rule otherwise then that's his call and in that case you might want to consider something else.
Akalsaris pretty much has you covered for unarmed damage mauling.

Sounds about right, I rolled a 1 on the save. My fort was 17. The only magic item I had was a +1 pristmatic burst warhammer.


Ideas for a SA oriented SSN?

Unbeliever

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 766
Re: A bitter defeat, new beginnings? shadow Sun Ninja Optimization?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2010, 03:09:40 PM »
Sounds about right, I rolled a 1 on the save. My fort was 17. The only magic item I had was a +1 pristmatic burst warhammer.


Ideas for a SA oriented SSN?
Just played a Swordsage/SSN this weekend and had a blast -- he was a mageslayer tripper type for a Diablo-themed game, patterned after the D2 Assassin.

SA and SSN are a bit inimical -- you get a lot of mileage out of what I think of as the core SSN ability (their negative energy touch) from really astronomical unarmed combat damage.  Then again, if that's not super important to you, e.g., if you're going to use it for between combat healing, then go nuts. 

I'd probably do the standard Swordsage SA shenanigans, although having high unarmed combat damage doesn't hurt that either.  There's also their darkness ability, which might be decent at setting up SAs, although you have to check to see if you can actually make a sneak attack in those cases since you're closed off from your senses.  And, honestly, it seems harder to set up an SA w/ that than w/ Island of Blades anyway.  There are lots of good Swordsage sneak attack builds around.