Author Topic: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game  (Read 4577 times)

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Brizane

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Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« on: April 22, 2010, 11:15:33 PM »
Hello everyone. I've been a lurker here, but first time poster. Before I start, I wanted to let you all know, this is a great forums, and is VERY helpful. Thank you all for that.

Ok, home game, mesh of 3.0 and 3.5, with a 32 point stat buy. Basically, the DM is allowing us to use almost any standard resource book, from either. I have many of the 3.5 books. The DM is forcing me to play a full Aasimar, and it meshes well with the Cleric. The game is based around the Dark Elf people, but the DM has changed what and who that race is. I'll basically be an undercover spy in the Dark Elf community, and the rest of the group will be actual Dark Elves, or thats what they will appear as. The DM's version of the Dark Elves appear to have as many variations in alignment as humans are. The back story appears to have 'demonic' origins, and the thought of playing a Malconvoker appeals to both myself, and upon hearing it, the DM loves the idea. Starting level will be 6th level. DM says he is prepared to have the game run into the low 20's.

I've been reading a lot about the Malconvoker class on the guide here by Treanmonklvl20. After reading it many many times, I think I understand most of it. Some of the abbreviations I'm lost on, but those are few. So, lets see...

Feats: (As I understand in my short time playing D&D, I'll start with 3. I'll put them in what order I think I should get them.)
1. Spell Focus (this is required for later feats)
2. Augmented Summoning
3. Rapid Spell

I start the game at this point, if I understand correctly. Looking ahead, I see there are vastly more feats i want, than I will be allowed to take. So, obviously, I'm here hoping to glean some advice.

4. Metamagic School Focus (This appears to be one I could do without?)
5. Fiendish Summoning Specialist
6. Practiced Spellcaster (to make up the lost spell level from Malconvoker)
7. Divine Metamagic (for Twin/Repeat Spell Feats)
8. Twin and/or Repeat Spell
9. Summon Elemental reserve

As I understand, I'll have to be level 24 to get all of these? That means I'll have to prioritize and order what I want/need in advance.

Feats are just the beginning of my having a hard time making characters in our home games that can hold their own. Most of the time, I fall behind the others in the group, as I am new to D&D, and the others are long time gamers. I used feats as an example of how I'm looking to optimize my character. Can all of you help me plan/build my character? I need stats, skills, feats, when to take them, how much, and such.

Should I jump out of Malconvoker into another prestige class?

And of course, only my race is set. I do love the class, but will this race/class combo simply not work? Perhaps something else will?

Thank you all so very much, for helping me be a better player.

Brizane





ninjarabbit

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 12:10:08 AM »
cloistered cleric5/malconcoker5/contemplative6 is a good start.

The big question is what domains are available to you. Some good domains for a malconvoker are summoning, trickery, mind, time, and you can give up one domain for the Divine Magician ACF.

Brizane

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 01:25:15 AM »
Ok, I had to look up what Cloistered Cleric was. I'm not sure why that would be more advantageous over a regular cleric. I see that I gain a few more spells, and the Knowledge domain, but the spells do not appear to be good enough for giving up the armor/weapons of a normal cleric. Could you explain why I would want that type of cleric?

As for my domains, the DM is allowing my to 'choose'. I currently have selected Knowledge and Trickery. Both seem to have some very useful spells and abilities, and Trickery fits the theme of my character.

Also, I do not know what Contemplative is. I've looked, it appears to be a supplement book? I can not seem to find any info on this.

Regardless, thank you so much for trying to help me. I'd really like to NOT be the weakest character in our group anymore, or if I am, I'd love to have some cool flavor. Am I trying to make something work that can't work?

Brizane

Havok4

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2010, 01:40:15 AM »
Contemplative is from Complete Divine. And being a malconvoker summoner can be very strong, you basically end up being a small army of fighters. You can then supplement them with buffs and battlefield control.

Brizane

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2010, 02:55:50 AM »
Ok, I found it. Very interesting, indeed.

Can someone tell me what all I gain from being an Aasimar? I understand I'll get a +2 to Wis and Cha. And resistance 5 to acid/cold/electricity. I can cast the spell 'daylight' once per day. I can see in the dark 60 feet. I think I get a bonus to spot? And listen? What does being an 'Outsider' mean for me?

Mostly, I'm wondering why the DM is acting like I'm getting a gift from the gaming gods, in being able to play this race. I do not wish to be disrespectful to him, so I've been kind of quiet about this. Is this really a gift, and if so, can you explain to me what it is? I do see its an optimum race for a cleric, stat wise. But, I'm an unusual Cleric, going Malconvoker.

Brizane

Anklebite

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2010, 02:58:56 AM »
Ok, I found it. Very interesting, indeed.

Can someone tell me what all I gain from being an Aasimar? I understand I'll get a +2 to Wis and Cha. And resistance 5 to acid/cold/electricity. I can cast the spell 'daylight' once per day. I can see in the dark 60 feet. I think I get a bonus to spot? And listen? What does being an 'Outsider' mean for me?

Mostly, I'm wondering why the DM is acting like I'm getting a gift from the gaming gods, in being able to play this race. I do not wish to be disrespectful to him, so I've been kind of quiet about this. Is this really a gift, and if so, can you explain to me what it is? I do see its an optimum race for a cleric, stat wise. But, I'm an unusual Cleric, going Malconvoker.

Brizane
outsider type means you are immune to "blah person" spells(hold, charm, but not hold monster), and you get free martial weapon profs. the real upside is being able to alter self and polymorph into an outsider form.

as for aasimar, I would ask your DM if you could play a lesser aasimar(unless he is planning to ignore level adjustment). otherwise, well, Kevin_video would be the expert on dealing with DMs who force LA races.
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Brizane

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2010, 03:10:58 AM »
As he is requesting/forcing me to play this race, he is not going to make me take the level penalty. And thank you, now I see what he is referring to, with the 'gift' of the race.

I have looked for where it says I get all these abilities by playing an outsider and/or an Aasimar, but can not find a list of abilities. Can you direct me to where it says I can do these things, playing this race?

Again, thank you so much for your help.

Brizane

Anklebite

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2010, 03:18:18 AM »
As he is requesting/forcing me to play this race, he is not going to make me take the level penalty. And thank you, now I see what he is referring to, with the 'gift' of the race.

I have looked for where it says I get all these abilities by playing an outsider and/or an Aasimar, but can not find a list of abilities. Can you direct me to where it says I can do these things, playing this race?

Again, thank you so much for your help.

Brizane

well, if he is giving you the race with no LA, I really don't see anything to complain about.

martial weapon profs are covered in the monster manual; look up types and subtypes, as they often have specific rules for them.

alter self/polymorph can only change you between your own type, and a limited list provided by the spell. your type is already outsider, so you can alter self into a bunch of very nifty forms. do a quick google on outsider alter self forms for more.
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snakeman830

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2010, 11:10:33 AM »
The beauty of Cloistered Cleric is the extra domain (you can trade the domain power for Knowledge Devotion, making you even better in combat) and the extra 4 skill points per level.  The lower BAB doesn't matter once you hit 7th level (you get Divine Power at that point), the HD is only one step lower, and the armor proficiencies don't mean that much (I personally prefer light armors for the increased mobility and so long as you have a good Dex, your AC doesn't suffer).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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zavule

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2010, 02:36:02 PM »
The beauty of Cloistered Cleric is the extra domain (you can trade the domain power for Knowledge Devotion, making you even better in combat) and the extra 4 skill points per level.  The lower BAB doesn't matter once you hit 7th level (you get Divine Power at that point), the HD is only one step lower, and the armor proficiencies don't mean that much (I personally prefer light armors for the increased mobility and so long as you have a good Dex, your AC doesn't suffer).

On top of that, you won't be doing much in the way of combat yourself.  You're a summoner, so you call things in to crack heads.  Since you're already going malconvoker, and they get lower hit dice, being in the front isn't a good idea for you.  So, why not trade away some of that bulk for extra skill points that will let you fill up on knowledge skills, bluff (you are a Malconvoker), and good stuff like that.  Your standard cleric gets 2 skill points a level, and you're not an intelligence based class.  This will make sure you have a few more points to sink into things that dedicated casters find useful like concentration, spellcraft, knowledge skills, and BLUFF.  You don't want to act like your standard D&D combat cleric, you want to act more like a caster, since that is what your prestige class focuses on.

Now, in terms of aasimar, you're getting a boost to your two important stats.  Wisdom is your casting stat, and charisma fuels turning.  I'd invest in some divine metamagic as soon as you can.  Another thing to consider is asking your DM if he allows flaws.  If so, load up.  You won't be doing much fighting yourself.  Leave that to your minions, so take two or three if its allowed, and get extra feats.
DM: The iron door is enchanted with a powerful anti-magic barrier.
Zavy: The door itself?
DM: Yes.
Zavy: I get acid flasks and a pry bar.  I just found myself a new tower shield.

Mixster

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2010, 03:10:46 PM »
If you're an outsider, consider the Transformation domain from Faiths of Eberron (if your DM allows it). It basically gives you all the change form spells, meaning your will be able to change into whatever you like at the higher levels.

Apart from that here are some handy links for Clerics, Malconvokers and Outsiders:
(I claim no credit for these, but they were a HUGE inspiration to me)

Clerics Handbook:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

Mastering the Malconvoker:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0

Alter Self:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0

Outsider alter self forms of note are the Ravid, The dwarf Ancestor, and the Mephits. Mostly mehits and Ravids since they are in the basic monsters manual though.

On your feats?
Well personally I'm torn, I love the power of divine metamagic at the low levels, but later I don't think it's that awe inspiring.
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Nunkuruji

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2010, 03:24:37 PM »
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful spell (Spell Compendium) is quite nice if you have a lot of allies/summons on the field, and otherwise don't have Haste at your disposal.

zavule

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2010, 05:52:52 PM »
For a malconvoker, its pretty good.  If he works at it, and buys some turning attempts, you're basically adding twin spell to your summons.  Add that to the lovely ability to double your summons, and you're getting four monsters for the price of one full round action.  Still, I'd rather go conjurer with that variant to the reduce casting time on summon spells.

If you're an outsider, consider the Transformation domain from Faiths of Eberron (if your DM allows it). It basically gives you all the change form spells, meaning your will be able to change into whatever you like at the higher levels.

Apart from that here are some handy links for Clerics, Malconvokers and Outsiders:
(I claim no credit for these, but they were a HUGE inspiration to me)

Clerics Handbook:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

Mastering the Malconvoker:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0

Alter Self:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0

Outsider alter self forms of note are the Ravid, The dwarf Ancestor, and the Mephits. Mostly mehits and Ravids since they are in the basic monsters manual though.

On your feats?
Well personally I'm torn, I love the power of divine metamagic at the low levels, but later I don't think it's that awe inspiring.
DM: The iron door is enchanted with a powerful anti-magic barrier.
Zavy: The door itself?
DM: Yes.
Zavy: I get acid flasks and a pry bar.  I just found myself a new tower shield.

Brizane

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2010, 11:39:29 PM »
Ok, so lets say I want to go with the absolute max for a Malconvoker. Would that be a Conjurer, then Malconvoker? If I decided to go this route, would another outsider race work better, stat/powers wise? If I go Conjy, won't I lose the divine metamagic toys with my turning ability? And if so, would that make me more or less powerful?

I am beginning to love the flavor/idea of the malconvoker more and more. So, to sum up...

1. Absolute max in Malconvoker, and any preclass that leads me here with the maximum benefit. (6th level start, playing from there)
2. Any outsider race, taking into account the DM will most likely let me get it without penalties. Along the lines of the Aasimar (LA+1).
3. Potential flaws, as I am not completely sure what this even is, but so far, the DM likes my class idea so much, he is very accepting.

I just have to add, you guys are great. I've learned more in one day of these posts than I ever did on my own. Thanks again for all your help.

Brizane



ninjarabbit

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2010, 11:54:03 PM »
If you're going to go conjurer then go focused conjurer (Complete Mage) for more conjuration spell slots, it's a better overall option than cleric. If you go this route I'd recommend tiefling over aasimar for the +2 int.

I'd also go with the Rapid summoning and enhanced summoning variants from Unearthed Arcana/SRD where you trade your familiar and scribe scroll feat respectively for the ability to cast summon spells as a standard action as opposed as a full-round action and the augmented summoning feat.

zavule

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2010, 03:59:36 AM »
Flaws:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingcharacters/characterflaws.htm

I made a malconvoker that broke a poor DM's game in one session.  I really didn't mean to, and I don't think she'd ever actually had someone min/max a character before.  She said "make a powerful character and I did.  The basic build (we started at level 10)

Human focused conjurer (3) master specialist (2) Malconvoker (5)  I was going to finish with master specialist, and end up with quickened summoning spells...

Banned Schools:  Evocation, Illusion, Enchantment

I also used a ton of alternate class features, such as subbing out your familiar for standard action summoning and trading in scribe scroll for augment summoning. I had leadership too, which really did not help the broken "ended an entire fight by myself" factor...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 04:05:50 AM by zavule »
DM: The iron door is enchanted with a powerful anti-magic barrier.
Zavy: The door itself?
DM: Yes.
Zavy: I get acid flasks and a pry bar.  I just found myself a new tower shield.

Havok4

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2010, 01:52:29 PM »
Yeah, you always should discover what your DM actually means when they say they want a powerful character.

On the issue of the rapid summoning ACF the only thing I see that is wrong with it is that you give up the ability to take abrupt jaunt. Also if you take the enhanced summoning ACF you probably should PrC out into master conjurer as fast as you can.

zavule

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Re: Help: Cleric/Malconvoker Build for home game
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2010, 02:15:11 PM »
I was focusing on getting as many angry critters out as possible.  If I took the standard action summoning, my creatures could use their spell like abilities that round if I'm not mistaken.  That's a nice bonus when you start getting into summoning things that can put up walls, or blast things with lightning.  Even if you need to lay down control of a battlefield as quick as you can by putting summoned meat walls in front of you and your party members, you can do it that round instead of the beginning of your next turn.  And you'll be getting major school esoterica allowing you to cast conjuration spells with a standard action as quickened spells 3 times per day... meaning even MORE angry critters if you need them, since your summons are standard actions.  Given, abrupt jaunt is an awesome ability...  I just chose to pump my summoning as much as it would go and depend on celerity to keep me from kicking the bucket.

Yeah, you always should discover what your DM actually means when they say they want a powerful character.

On the issue of the rapid summoning ACF the only thing I see that is wrong with it is that you give up the ability to take abrupt jaunt. Also if you take the enhanced summoning ACF you probably should PrC out into master conjurer as fast as you can.

DM: The iron door is enchanted with a powerful anti-magic barrier.
Zavy: The door itself?
DM: Yes.
Zavy: I get acid flasks and a pry bar.  I just found myself a new tower shield.