Fell Drain Magic Missile at level 1

[ksbsnowowl]

As an aside, there is support that Energy Drain and Negative Levels are interchangeable anyway: Life Drinker.

I think that pretty well seals that energy drain does equate to negative levels.  They are the same heading in the DMG, and despite only being immune to energy drain (and not specifically negative levels), this item specifies that undead are immune to gaining a negative level from the Lifedrinker.  Are the rules muddy? Sure, they could have better clarified that energy drain is negative levels, and vice versa, but there is enough evidence in the core rules to determine that they are equivalent.

[Amechra]

So is this a new hole in the rules (i.e. just noticed), or is it an old one? I'm confused.

[LargePrime]

As an aside, there is support that Energy Drain and Negative Levels are interchangeable anyway: Life Drinker.

spell based on enervation.  Not evidence.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I believe the process of gaining negative levels by any method is considered energy drain... I believe there was originally an "energy drained" status effect which was "whenever you have negative levels", but the rewrites ended up confusing the matter.

[ksbsnowowl]

LargePrime is right, energy drain is not negative levels.  They have separate entries in the PHB glossary.  The entry for negative levels starts:

"A loss of vital energy resulting from energy drain, spells, magic items, or magical effects."

Thus, it is a different thing from energy drain (which is specified as "an attack" in its glossary entry), and can be caused by other things.

But, Undead are immune to energy drain, and every spell I know of that causes negative levels instead specifies it buffs undead (though there may be a spell out there that can harm undead), and most "magical effects" are going to allow a Fort save, in which case the undead would be immune (you can't level drain an object).

So, it seems magical items of an opposed alignment are the only readily apparent way to inflict negative levels on an undead (at least, within core).

[LargePrime]

LargePrime is right,

Sigable.
oddly enough I came across "energy charge" in MM3, but I cannot find a monster with that ability.

Fell drain does not specify undead buff.  and would effect a spell.

And the question still remains if fort save immunity applies.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I'm guessing the fact that negative levels eventually allow fort saves makes undead immune, at least to the ones that allow fort saves.

[ksbsnowowl]

LargePrime is right,

Sigable.
oddly enough I came across "energy charge" in MM3, but I cannot find a monster with that ability.

Fell drain does not specify undead buff.  and would effect a spell.

And the question still remains if fort save immunity applies.

Fell Drain: "You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level."

[Negative Zero]

LargePrime is right,

Sigable.
oddly enough I came across "energy charge" in MM3, but I cannot find a monster with that ability.

Fell drain does not specify undead buff.  and would effect a spell.

And the question still remains if fort save immunity applies.

That's because there are no creatures with that ability, period. Which is good, because it would be broken.

[snakeman830]

As an aside, there is support that Energy Drain and Negative Levels are interchangeable anyway: Life Drinker.

spell based on enervation.  Not evidence.

It's an item, not a spell.  It may have Eneveration as a prerequisite, but there are numerous times when prerequisite spells are not used in the item's activation or effect (Ring of X-Ray vision, anyone?)

So yes, it is evidence.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

LargePrime is right,

Sigable.
oddly enough I came across "energy charge" in MM3, but I cannot find a monster with that ability.

Fell drain does not specify undead buff.  and would effect a spell.

And the question still remains if fort save immunity applies.

That's because there are no creatures with that ability, period. Which is good, because it would be broken.

Not in the least of which, because they forgot to replace all their "negative" with "positive"

[LargePrime]

As an aside, there is support that Energy Drain and Negative Levels are interchangeable anyway: Life Drinker.

spell based on enervation.  Not evidence.

It's an item, not a spell.  It may have Eneveration as a prerequisite, but there are numerous times when prerequisite spells are not used in the item's activation or effect (Ring of X-Ray vision, anyone?)

So yes, it is evidence.

it is evidence of how that item behaves.  Congrats on drawing a circle.

[LargePrime]

LargePrime is right,

Sigable.
oddly enough I came across "energy charge" in MM3, but I cannot find a monster with that ability.

Fell drain does not specify undead buff.  and would effect a spell.

And the question still remains if fort save immunity applies.

Fell Drain: "You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level."

There!  You have just been shown as a fraud!  LargePrime was not right!

[ksbsnowowl]

I think I'm going to be absolutely evil and have my PC's face a Human Wiz (Focused Evoker) 1 who has Metamagic Spell Focus and Fell Drain.  Fell draining sonic snaps are just evil.  Although technically a CR 1 encounter, I'll be nice enough to make it a CR 2 encounter, just because he could outright kill three 1st level characters, with no saves or anything.  Hell that one level of Wizard would be a nice buff to just about anything (note Fell Drain has no prereq's, so you could pick it up earlier on racial HD or something).

[Havok4]

You might be better off with a focused conjurer for a higher evil factor as he could use abrupt jaunt to be basically unkillable for a few rounds.

[ksbsnowowl]

You might be better off with a focused conjurer for a higher evil factor as he could use abrupt jaunt to be basically unkillable for a few rounds.

True, but the problem lies in that Metamagic Spell Focus only works for your focused school (or for a school in which you have spell focus, but that's more feats than a first level character can get, and I typically don't use or allow flaws in my games).

[McPoyo]

You might be better off with a focused conjurer for a higher evil factor as he could use abrupt jaunt to be basically unkillable for a few rounds.

True, but the problem lies in that Metamagic Spell Focus only works for your focused school (or for a school in which you have spell focus, but that's more feats than a first level character can get, and I typically don't use or allow flaws in my games).

Acid Splash is a conjuration

[ksbsnowowl]

You might be better off with a focused conjurer for a higher evil factor as he could use abrupt jaunt to be basically unkillable for a few rounds.

True, but the problem lies in that Metamagic Spell Focus only works for your focused school (or for a school in which you have spell focus, but that's more feats than a first level character can get, and I typically don't use or allow flaws in my games).

Acid Splash is a conjuration

Which is also nice, but can't have Fell drain applied to it.

The one time I did make a focused specialist, it was a focused conjurer, and I enjoyed it. It just doesn't give you auto-negative levels like the evocation can.

[McPoyo]

You might be better off with a focused conjurer for a higher evil factor as he could use abrupt jaunt to be basically unkillable for a few rounds.

True, but the problem lies in that Metamagic Spell Focus only works for your focused school (or for a school in which you have spell focus, but that's more feats than a first level character can get, and I typically don't use or allow flaws in my games).

Acid Splash is a conjuration

Which is also nice, but can't have Fell drain applied to it.

The one time I did make a focused specialist, it was a focused conjurer, and I enjoyed it. It just doesn't give you auto-negative levels like the evocation can.

Why not? It deals damage on a hit. I see no reason it cannot have Fell Drain applied to it.

[ksbsnowowl]

You might be better off with a focused conjurer for a higher evil factor as he could use abrupt jaunt to be basically unkillable for a few rounds.

True, but the problem lies in that Metamagic Spell Focus only works for your focused school (or for a school in which you have spell focus, but that's more feats than a first level character can get, and I typically don't use or allow flaws in my games).

Acid Splash is a conjuration

Which is also nice, but can't have Fell drain applied to it.

The one time I did make a focused specialist, it was a focused conjurer, and I enjoyed it. It just doesn't give you auto-negative levels like the evocation can.

Why not? It deals damage on a hit. I see no reason it cannot have Fell Drain applied to it.

Fell drain is a metamagic feat, and requires you to use a higher level slot.  You don't have higher level slots to boost acid splash, as it isn't prepared in a slot. (Yes, you have to have some acid spell in reserve in a slot, but that is not the effect you are producing).