Author Topic: Help me build an Assassin.  (Read 8097 times)

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agrikk

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Help me build an Assassin.
« on: April 20, 2010, 10:02:31 PM »
Having just finished the Night Angel Trilogy and being told by a friend that he wants to start a City Campaign, I'm looking for ideas on how to build me a wetboy.

For those who haven't read this series, a wetboy is like a super-assassin, able to dish damage like a warrior, move like a rogue (or a monk), pick locks, backstab, etc but also uses spells to help him out. Now I'm not talking fireballs and chain lightning here, but all of the utility spells like Darkness, Jump, Fly, Haste, Spider Climb that help him put a sword in a back that much easier.

While perousing google for ideas, I found this site and the min/max section and want to see if you guys can help me out. (By the way, the Dirty Tricks section is excellent. The Assplomancer? The Coat Hangar? Jeeez... :D )


I'm resurrecting a short-lived character from a Rolemaster campaign who was a Drow Nightblade there, so the character must be a Drow female.


I'm starting at level 1, but I'd love to see what a level 20 character looks like so I know what the level progression looks like.


As a bonus, the character in the Rolemaster campaign was also responsible for starting a new church to Naveh (a Harnmaster deity) so dip into Cleric would be cool to include.


I was initially thinking about a few levels in Fighter and Rogue (to collect Weapon Finesse, Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon fighting and Improved two-weapon fighting to bring the whirlwind thing to melee as well as a few dice of sneak attack) before finishing up levels in cleric to imply my creation of a new Church of Death, but I can't figure out how to most efficiently work in the whole utility-spellcasting angle into the mix.

I suppose I could just quad class as a Sorcerer and be done with it, but I'm hoping there's a cooler way to do it.

I thought maybe the Duskblade would be a good choice but the duskblade's spell picks are lame.



Help anyone?

Anklebite

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2010, 10:07:12 PM »
factotum.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2010, 10:09:35 PM »
With the "Daring Outlaw" feat from Complete Scoundrel, Swashbuckler and Rogue levels stack for Sneak attack. Such builds tend to have a minimum of 3 levels of Swashbuckler for Int to damage and 3 levels of rogue for the 2d6 sneak attack prerequisite for the Daring Outlaw feats.

More martial daring Outlaws may continue Swashbuckler for better BAB and HD, as well as the Shield of Blades ACF from PHB2 for better synergy with the two-handed style. Rogues that prefer stealth and skill points will continue Rogue and stack their rogue levels with Swashbuckler for the Grace class feature and the Dodge every five levels.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2010, 10:31:50 PM »
Iaijutsu focus skill (oriental adventures) on a factotum (dunegonscape).  To avoid being too crippled by level adjustment, use the drow savage progression, and only pick up the "base" LA+0 abilities.  It's explicitly allowed in the web savage progression description.
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Saxony

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2010, 10:56:48 PM »
This thread is awesome http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7841.0. It's about jacking up Death Attack DC to insane levels. You may not be able to use some of it (like the Dragon material), but you should get good ideas.

Also; use poisons. And preferrably make them too to reduce cost. There are a few insane low-level poisons. Check out the Poison Handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0 . You don't even need to invest much to be good at poisons.

I've never played an Assassin, so I can't give more advice.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2010, 11:33:01 PM »
rogue2/swashbuckler3/assassin10/swashbuckler5

16 BAB, 10d6 sneak attack, minor spellcasting

Havok4

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2010, 12:15:37 AM »
I second factotum, it does everything you describe and is amazing at working with poisons.

agrikk

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2010, 12:58:23 AM »
rogue2/swashbuckler3/assassin10/swashbuckler5

16 BAB, 10d6 sneak attack, minor spellcasting

Would the Assassin10 here be the Assassin base class or prestige class from the Assassin's Handbook or the power class?

Anklebite

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2010, 01:02:50 AM »
rogue2/swashbuckler3/assassin10/swashbuckler5

16 BAB, 10d6 sneak attack, minor spellcasting

Would the Assassin10 here be the Assassin base class or prestige class from the Assassin's Handbook or the power class?
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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2010, 01:28:58 AM »
utility spells like Darkness, Jump, Fly, Haste, Spider Climb

This sounds like Warlock. But that doesn't fit the fluff you're looking for.

I'm going to throw in my vote for Factotum. They're very versatile and a lot of fun to play. The Chameleon PrC from Races of Destiny allows some pretty good utility spells, too, from multiple lists. You'd have to get your DM to waive the race requirement, though.

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2010, 05:15:57 AM »
utility spells like Darkness, Jump, Fly, Haste, Spider Climb

This sounds like Warlock. But that doesn't fit the fluff you're looking for.
1. Expansion: "Blend into Shadows" feat,
2. Indignation, rhetorical retort: Fluff? In my mechanics?

[spoiler]
Having just finished the Night Angel Trilogy and being told by a friend that he wants to start a City Campaign, I'm looking for ideas on how to build me a wetboy.

For those who haven't read this series, a wetboy is like a super-assassin, able to dish damage like a warrior, move like a rogue (or a monk), pick locks, backstab, etc but also uses spells to help him out. Now I'm not talking fireballs and chain lightning here, but all of the utility spells like Darkness, Jump, Fly, Haste, Spider Climb that help him put a sword in a back that much easier.

While perousing google for ideas, I found this site and the min/max section and want to see if you guys can help me out. (By the way, the Dirty Tricks section is excellent. The Assplomancer? The Coat Hangar? Jeeez... :D )


I'm resurrecting a short-lived character from a Rolemaster campaign who was a Drow Nightblade there, so the character must be a Drow female.


I'm starting at level 1, but I'd love to see what a level 20 character looks like so I know what the level progression looks like.


As a bonus, the character in the Rolemaster campaign was also responsible for starting a new church to Naveh (a Harnmaster deity) so dip into Cleric would be cool to include.


I was initially thinking about a few levels in Fighter and Rogue (to collect Weapon Finesse, Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon fighting and Improved two-weapon fighting to bring the whirlwind thing to melee as well as a few dice of sneak attack) before finishing up levels in cleric to imply my creation of a new Church of Death, but I can't figure out how to most efficiently work in the whole utility-spellcasting angle into the mix.

I suppose I could just quad class as a Sorcerer and be done with it, but I'm hoping there's a cooler way to do it.

I thought maybe the Duskblade would be a good choice but the duskblade's spell picks are lame.



Help anyone?
[/spoiler]
1. "Night Angel Trilogy" plot summary to read
2. Query: re: "City Campaign": Does the name correlate to its semantic simplicity, i.e. by "City Campaign", you mean a campaign in a city A.K.A. an urban environment?
2.5. Warning: Friend GMs and optimization = disparity.
3. Query: re: "super-assassin": Must I expect hyperbole?
4. Query: re: "able to dish damage like a warrior": there's a difference between "dishing damage like a warrior" and "dishing damage of a warrior". Warrior - physical fighter.
5. Query: re: "move like a rogue (or a monk)": For the former, you mean at half-speed, else tumbling? Else, you mean stealthily. For the latter, I recognize only speed.
6. re: "backstab": alignment.
7. re: "uses spells to help him out": i) categorization: magical, sneaky gish, ii) "him"... (See race.)
8. Query: re: "all of the utility spells": you want access to "all of the utility spells"?
9. re: "put a sword in a back": it's the same damage-dice no matter where you put it. I understand the implication of sneak-attack damage and the like.
10. "I'm resurrecting a short-lived character from a Rolemaster campaign who was a Drow Nightblade there, so the character must be a Drow female." Resurrection? Nightblade? I rebuke female for you, suspecting you are male.
11. "As a bonus, the character in the Rolemaster campaign was also responsible for starting a new church to Naveh (a Harnmaster deity) so dip into Cleric would be cool to include." What's the significance of "Rolemaster"? Who's "Naveh"? What's "Harnmaster"? I don't consider a Cleric dip, as a bonus.
12. re: "Fighter and Rogue": Specialist Fighter variants (Dragon Magazine), Hit-and-Run Tactics variant (DotU), Fighter bonus feat variant Rogue, Thug variant Fighter, Sneak-attack variant Fighter. There's no feat to stack those levels, but it'd be neat to home-brew. Rogue to start for skill-points, else Fighter for HD. Fighter has the obvious 2-level break, but the Rogue isn't as clear.
13. re: "Weapon Finesse, Ambidexterity": You can get Weapon Finesse with a dip in the Swashbuckler base class which, combined with Daring Outlaw feat (mentioned by skydragonknight), is a great class for a melee Rogue. Arcane Stunt ACF Swashbuckler (CM), 3-level break. Secondly, "Ambidexterity"? 3.0e?
14. Query: re: "[TWF feats] to bring the whirlwind thing to melee as well as a few [SA dice]": What you say?
15. re: "finishing up levels in cleric to imply my creation of a new Church of Death, but I can't figure out how to most efficiently work in the whole utility-spellcasting angle into the mix." You mean, finishing up with levels in the Cleric base class? I find your application of the church-creation to the build dysfunctional. Thirdly, UMD or higher-order ability of the Catalogues of Enlightenment touch-site.
16. re: "I suppose I could just quad class as a Sorcerer and be done with it": there, you address the problem and what's an unoptimal solution.

Fantassassin.

Options
[spoiler]get darkness invocation + Blend into Shadows feat (Fade into Darkness, Intensify Darkness (for sleep), At Home in the Deep, Instinctive Darkness), dark template (collar of umbral metamorphosis), fellmist robe soulmeld, kruthik claws soulmeld, flexible mind [anarchic] feat (starting as a class without hide and move silently as class-skills (and the desire for those skills as class-skills (But this won't work flavourfully as you are lawful (and alignments are dumb))), Chameleon template, God-blooded template (Vecna to Naveh home-brew), Ghost progression, Magic in the Blood feat, Unseelie Fey template (Dragon Compendium, Volume I), Chameleon PrC (as Phaenix mentions above), Factotum (mentioned by Anklebite, The_Mad_Linguist, Havok4, Phaenix, Able Learner feat), Stoneblessed (Gnome) PrC for Earth Dreamer PrC (Races of Stone, for getting through obstacles (walls)), "3.5 breaking and entering" thread, Mindrape spell + Love's Pain combo, I second poisons, Mineral Warrior (Stony) template (burrow speed), Lolth-touched template, Swordsage base class (ToB), Darkstalker feat, Braid Blade, Fukimi-Bari (mouth darts), Master of Masks PrC dip (Gladiator), "Beefin Sneak Attack" thread (weapon enhancements), Discern Location spell (scry(-teleport)-and-die), Shadow Pounce class feature (Telflammar Shadowlord PrC, Crinti Shadow Marauder PrC, Jaunter PrC (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits), "Knight of Shadows" build by Alastar (preceded by "Metus Somnambulus"), Shadow-walker template, Horizon Walker PrC), Slayer PrC, Dust of Disappearance, Assassin PrC, Elf Ranger racial substitution level(s), Savage Species rituals -> Pixie, Jermlaine, Whisper Gnome, Hengeyokai, Petal?, Brownie?, Ambush Drake?, Beguiler (ShS, with GM fiat), I second a lesser variant Drow (mentioned by The_Mad_Linguist, progression or odd variant from some Faerun book for LA races), Trapsmith?

level 1: Hit-and-Run Tactics (DotU), Survivalist Specialist Fighter variant (Dragon Magazine).
level 2: Lolth-Touched template.
levels >2: I dunno, classic gish (caster/casting fighter)? Ftr/Wizard/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight/Spellsword. Focus utilities on stealth.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 01:47:09 AM by NiteCyper »
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Jopustopin

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2010, 05:49:46 AM »
Assumed Variants or house rules:
Level Adjustment buy off and fractional BAB and saving throw stacking (Unearth Arcana)
Abrupt Jaunt (PHB II)


Conjurer 1/Drow Paragon 3/Conjurer 1/Assassin 3/swordsage 1/Assassin 7/ 4 open levels cleric/swordsage/crusader whatever you want man.

Conjuration: Give up your familiar and select Abrupt Jaunt from PHB II. You can still memorize all the buffing spells you want; but abrupt jaunt would be really helpful for your character concept. The swordsage levels will give you things like Assassin's Stance (+2d6 sneak attack) and other ways of quickly moving about the battle field (shadow jaunt) etc.  Drow Paragon (unearthed arcana) gives you more hit points and a way to get into Assassin while still progressing your Conjuration spellcasting (by giving you hide and move silently as class skills).  After you're done with the Assassin prestige class you can pretty much do whatever you want.  Swordsage is chosen at level 9 so you can get Assassin's stance.   (you end up with +7d6 sneak attack with Assassin's Stance on)

Things you don't have with this build: Trapfinding
You'll end up with a Base Attack Bonus of (depending on what you pick for your last 4 levels) +14 or +15
This kinda sucks as +16 is the sweetness.  But you do end up with a lot of low level buffing spells and many combat options through swordsage (especially if you choose swordsage for your last four levels)



« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 06:13:48 AM by Jopustopin »

agrikk

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2010, 04:18:42 PM »

1. "Night Angel Trilogy" plot summary to read
2. Query: re: "City Campaign": Does the name correlate to its semantic simplicity, i.e. by "City Campaign", you mean a campaign in a city A.K.A. an urban environment?
2.5. Warning: Friend GMs and optimization = disparity.
3. Query: re: "super-assassin": Must I expect hyperbole?
4. Query: re: "able to dish damage like a warrior": there's a difference between "dishing damage like a warrior" and "dishing damage of a warrior". Warrior - physical fighter.
5. Query: re: "move like a rogue (or a monk)": For the former, you mean at half-speed, else tumbling? Else, you mean stealthily. For the latter, I recognize only speed.
6. re: "backstab": alignment.
7. re: "uses spells to help him out": i) categorization: magical, sneaky gish, ii) "him"... (See race.)
8. Query: re: "all of the utility spells": you want access to "all of the utility spells"?
9. re: "put a sword in a back": it's the same damage-dice no matter where you put it. I understand the implication of sneak-attack damage and the like.
10. "I'm resurrecting a short-lived character from a Rolemaster campaign who was a Drow Nightblade there, so the character must be a Drow female." Resurrection? Nightblade? I rebuke female for you, suspecting you are male.
11. "As a bonus, the character in the Rolemaster campaign was also responsible for starting a new church to Naveh (a Harnmaster deity) so dip into Cleric would be cool to include." What's the significance of "Rolemaster"? Who's "Naveh"? What's "Harnmaster"? I don't consider a Cleric dip, as a bonus.
12.


1. For fun I suggest reading the books themselves. They're quick reading and for once in a fantasy series, it's actually finished (see Robert Jordan - Wheel of Time and George "R.R.R.R" Martin - Game of Thrones), and don't struggle under the weight of their own self-importance.

2. A "City Campaign" is a term we use for a campaign set in a city. Typically it's a large, sprawling city (like Greyhawk or Ptolus) on the downward spiral from its glory days. Adventurers go their entire careers (or lives) gaining levels and going on adventures within the walls or under them and leaving the city only a handful of times, if ever. Characters are lightly armored and generally deal more with the more nefarious aspects of urban life, rather than courtly behaviour.

3.  "Super-assassin": a really really really good assassin. Like the Night Angel Trilogy says: "The distinction is that assassins have targets; wetboys have deaders, because a target can be missed while a deader is as good as dead."

4.  To clarify: I wish to deal a lot of damage through melee attacks. Be it through a single sneak attack, or through multiple primary and off-hand attacks.

5.  "Move like a rogue":  Sneaky, stealthy, climbing walls, getting into places I shouldn't be and getting out again undetected.

6.  Not sure what you mean here, but the character is Lawful Evil. The background is that I show up in a strange city after fleeing the Underdark (reasons yet to be determined) and quickly decide to take over the underworld well, because it's there.



7. Not sure what is meant by "gish" though I've seen it tossed around a few times on these boards. Utility spells to help assist in my task of getting to a target, killing it/stealing it, then getting out again without being detected.

To be precise, the character is a Lawful Evil Female Drow. When she goes topside, she will disguise herself as a leprous beggar male in order to be left alone and ignored until she can figure what's what. I mention him/her interchangeably since sometimes she's a he and she's a she.

8. The characters Kylar Stern and Durzo Blint were both very powerful wetboys who had the use of spells. I'd like to have arcane ability as well to use spells to help augment abilities rather than blow people up.

9. Damage on target, baby. It's all about that.

10. We played another campaign that ended. That campaign was set in the world of Harn and we used the Rolemaster rule set. The campaign ended before the character could be fully developed so I'm going to play the character concept again here. Yes I am a male. Yes I am playing a female drow. I'm comfortable with that. :)

11. See the links in #10. Harnmaster was the rule set that came with the world of Harn. They were pretty good but we were playing Rolemaster at the time. Naveh is one of the gods of harn, also known as the Bringer of Nightmares. Very similar to Vecna or Nerul in evilness.

Rolemaster had three realms of magic that any character could pull spell lists from (Mentalism[psionics], Essence [arcane magic] and Channeling [divine magic]. My orignal character had lists from all three that allowed her to charm people, make them forget stuff, while turning invisible, extinguish fires, create illusions, fly, turn invisible as well as commune with her god through divination, augury, etc.  It was really fun to have all these different aspects of spells in her inventory.

That's why I was considering a cleric dip: not so much for efficiency and bonus skills and abilities, but to stay true to her original manifestation.

12.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 04:41:37 PM by agrikk »

NiteCyper

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2010, 08:08:14 PM »
[spoiler]

1. "Night Angel Trilogy" plot summary to read
2. Query: re: "City Campaign": Does the name correlate to its semantic simplicity, i.e. by "City Campaign", you mean a campaign in a city A.K.A. an urban environment?
2.5. Warning: Friend GMs and optimization = disparity.
3. Query: re: "super-assassin": Must I expect hyperbole?
4. Query: re: "able to dish damage like a warrior": there's a difference between "dishing damage like a warrior" and "dishing damage of a warrior". Warrior - physical fighter.
5. Query: re: "move like a rogue (or a monk)": For the former, you mean at half-speed, else tumbling? Else, you mean stealthily. For the latter, I recognize only speed.
6. re: "backstab": alignment.
7. re: "uses spells to help him out": i) categorization: magical, sneaky gish, ii) "him"... (See race.)
8. Query: re: "all of the utility spells": you want access to "all of the utility spells"?
9. re: "put a sword in a back": it's the same damage-dice no matter where you put it. I understand the implication of sneak-attack damage and the like.
10. "I'm resurrecting a short-lived character from a Rolemaster campaign who was a Drow Nightblade there, so the character must be a Drow female." Resurrection? Nightblade? I rebuke female for you, suspecting you are male.
11. "As a bonus, the character in the Rolemaster campaign was also responsible for starting a new church to Naveh (a Harnmaster deity) so dip into Cleric would be cool to include." What's the significance of "Rolemaster"? Who's "Naveh"? What's "Harnmaster"? I don't consider a Cleric dip, as a bonus.
12.


1. For fun I suggest reading the books themselves. They're quick reading and for once in a fantasy series, it's actually finished (see Robert Jordan - Wheel of Time and George "R.R.R.R" Martin - Game of Thrones), and don't struggle under the weight of their own self-importance.

2. A "City Campaign" is a term we use for a campaign set in a city. Typically it's a large, sprawling city (like Greyhawk or Ptolus) on the downward spiral from its glory days. Adventurers go their entire careers (or lives) gaining levels and going on adventures within the walls or under them and leaving the city only a handful of times, if ever. Characters are lightly armored and generally deal more with the more nefarious aspects of urban life, rather than courtly behaviour.

3.  "Super-assassin": a really really really good assassin. Like the Night Angel Trilogy says: "The distinction is that assassins have targets; wetboys have deaders, because a target can be missed while a deader is as good as dead."

4.  To clarify: I wish to deal a lot of damage through melee attacks. Be it through a single sneak attack, or through multiple primary and off-hand attacks.

5.  "Move like a rogue":  Sneaky, stealthy, climbing walls, getting into places I shouldn't be and getting out again undetected.

6.  Not sure what you mean here, but the character is Lawful Evil. The background is that I show up in a strange city after fleeing the Underdark (reasons yet to be determined) and quickly decide to take over the underworld well, because it's there.

...

7. Not sure what is meant by "gish" though I've seen it tossed around a few times on these boards. Utility spells to help assist in my task of getting to a target, killing it/stealing it, then getting out again without being detected.

To be precise, the character is a Lawful Evil Female Drow. When she goes topside, she will disguise herself as a leprous beggar male in order to be left alone and ignored until she can figure what's what. I mention him/her interchangeably since sometimes she's a he and she's a she.

8. The characters Kylar Stern and Durzo Blint were both very powerful wetboys who had the use of spells. I'd like to have arcane ability as well to use spells to help augment abilities rather than blow people up.

9. Damage on target, baby. It's all about that.

10. We played another campaign that ended. That campaign was set in the world of Harn and we used the Rolemaster rule set. The campaign ended before the character could be fully developed so I'm going to play the character concept again here. Yes I am a male. Yes I am playing a female drow. I'm comfortable with that. :)

11. See the links in #10. Harnmaster was the rule set that came with the world of Harn. They were pretty good but we were playing Rolemaster at the time. Naveh is one of the gods of harn, also known as the Bringer of Nightmares. Very similar to Vecna or Nerul in evilness.

Rolemaster had three realms of magic that any character could pull spell lists from (Mentalism[psionics], Essence [arcane magic] and Channeling [divine magic]. My orignal character had lists from all three that allowed her to charm people, make them forget stuff, while turning invisible, extinguish fires, create illusions, fly, turn invisible as well as commune with her god through divination, augury, etc.  It was really fun to have all these different aspects of spells in her inventory.

That's why I was considering a cleric dip: not so much for efficiency and bonus skills and abilities, but to stay true to her original manifestation.

...
[/spoiler]

1. Duly noted.

2. Urban variants.

3. Heart-warming.

5. re: "climbing walls": Slippers of Spider Climb(ing), White Cloak of the Spider, Chameleon template, Up the Walls feat,

6. Spoiler-block tags please.

7. "Gish" means magical (casting) fighter.

11. God-blooded. You don't have to be a Cleric. Ur-Priest.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 01:39:49 AM by NiteCyper »
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.

Saxony

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2010, 10:35:51 PM »
Swordsage is chosen at level 9 so you can get Assassin's stance.
The first stance granted by a martial adept class must always be a 1st level stance. You'd have to go SwordSage 2 to get a higher level stance.
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Jopustopin

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2010, 10:41:32 PM »
Swordsage is chosen at level 9 so you can get Assassin's stance.
The first stance granted by a martial adept class must always be a 1st level stance. You'd have to go SwordSage 2 to get a higher level stance.

We always took "You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you" to mean that for a first level character.  Because this is only true for a 1st level swordsage.  A level 5 fighter who picks up a level of swordsage does not "begin play" with a 1st level stance.  He began play with no stances.  If their was a ruling on it, I'm unaware; our group just thought it was a typo (much like the swordsages skill points gained at first level).  If this is true then I'd just add in a second level of swordsage into my build.

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2010, 10:15:19 PM »
3 words: Black Flame Zelot... the Kukri proficency is a lame one but you get full BAB (Divine Power) sneak attack trap finding (by both rouge and cleric as a spell) good skill ranks (be a cloistered cleric) and minions with the right choice of Domains and Spells
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Saxony

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2010, 10:53:18 PM »
Swordsage is chosen at level 9 so you can get Assassin's stance.
The first stance granted by a martial adept class must always be a 1st level stance. You'd have to go SwordSage 2 to get a higher level stance.

We always took "You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you" to mean that for a first level character.  Because this is only true for a 1st level swordsage.  A level 5 fighter who picks up a level of swordsage does not "begin play" with a 1st level stance.  He began play with no stances.  If their was a ruling on it, I'm unaware; our group just thought it was a typo (much like the swordsages skill points gained at first level).  If this is true then I'd just add in a second level of swordsage into my build.
The consensus over here if that the first stance is always a first level stance, if it makes any difference :). That's where I was coming from.
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Unbeliever

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Re: Help me build an Assassin.
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2010, 12:50:22 AM »
3 words: Black Flame Zelot... the Kukri proficency is a lame one but you get full BAB (Divine Power) sneak attack trap finding (by both rouge and cleric as a spell) good skill ranks (be a cloistered cleric) and minions with the right choice of Domains and Spells
Isn't Shadowbane Stalker strictly superior to Black Flame Zealot?  I've always liked the Stalker, though I've never found a concept/campaign for it work in. 

Anklebite

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