Optimizing a Hairy Spider

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It has been brought to my attention that the web updates to Monsters of Faerun is absolutely full of added LAs.

In particular, the "hairy spider" was given LA+0.

Stats:
Fine size, vermin type
Poison immunity
-8 STR, +4 dex, -- int (IE: mindless) , -8 cha
Immune to poison
Racial bonuses of +4 to hide, +6 to jump, and +12 to spot.
Can be used as a familiar.

So, for an arena game, an incorporeal undead hairy spider would actually be able to bypass the otherwise-invincible "Mindsight+touchsight+lifesense" sensory combination.  The main issue is, well, their stats suck, and mindless is pretty crippling, since you don't get feats or skill points.

How do we make it not suck?   
Consensus says: levels in druid, of course.  Druids don't care about strength, intelligence, or charisma penalities.  And the druid 4 spell from CC, Iconic Manifestation, gives you int 3 for the duration of the spell.  Since you aren't mindless, you can choose all those feats that you didn't think you could have.  Pick your feats on the fly! 

[Littha]

cleric levels?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The lack of strength is going to hurt a lot (carrying capacity is so low).  Druid seems like a better choice, though you'd probably get bossed around by your animal companion...

[Mushroom]

Druid

This is an awesome character concept

Holy shit

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Being a dragonborn is freaky, and can't really hurt that much (the skill bonuses are inferior to the dragonborn racial traits, though loss of poison immunity might be a dealbreaker).

Oh, right, the biggest problem is we don't get any normal feats or skill points, being mindless and all...

Still, even without natural spell, druids are great.

I suppose dark chaos feat shenanigans could get you some actual feats - barring that, what other ways would there be to pick up natural spell?  Is there some bonus feat list that includes it?

... flaws give you "bonus feats", so it looks like we get two feats to play with at level one... spellfire wielder and something else?

Qualifying for ghost is problematic - the requirement of 6 charisma is easy enough, but a vermin (or an outsider, with celestial attended birth), can't get the template.  EDIT: DUR, unseelie fey.  Vernal touch or summer caress, obviously.

Is there some way to temporarily get an int score?  Because it would be all kinds of useful to dynamically allocate your feats and skill points

[Grim Sage]

There are several spells and items that give you the Celestial or Fiendish template temporarily, which would give you an Int of 3 for the duration.
Skin of the Celestial / Fiend in CPsi (10000 gp) would work.

[Mushroom]

unseelie fey

Make sure to grab Beauty's Bounty for some bonus hp for when you go ghost

[The_Mad_Linguist]

unseelie fey

Make sure to grab Beauty's Bounty for some bonus hp for when you go ghost

a net -6 to cha makes that somewhat unlikely...

Hmm... come to think of it, if I went ghost at first level, and immediately picked up otherworldly (via the celestial-attended birth loophole), I'd still have a con score.  'course, that would remove the possibility of spending my taint-granted bonus feat on natural spell...

Unfortunately, the skins have been updated in MIC, and no longer give the template...

[Littha]

Somehow if you can get heroics on your spell list you can have the fighter feat of your choice... though that is less useful

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The best bet, I think, is to find some way of triggering the fiendish or celesital template when needed... I think there's a spell for that, actually...
EDIT: Nope, visage of the deity doesn't just grant the template.  Well, I'm sure there's something out there.

Ur-priest or typical PrC shenanigans can be relied upon, due to the fact that we normally have no skill points.  Unfortunate.

Isn't there some sort of magic evil book that grants skill points?  That would be useful, since we normally aren't getting any.

[Prime32]

Could you use entomanthropy? Or play an incarnate construct effigy?

Or even play an intelligent magic item worn by the spider who orders it around?

[Grim Sage]

Damnit, didn't check to see if they were updated.

In that case, Iconic Manifestation would work (Druid4, CC). Sadly, the Visage of the Deity spell won't, since you only get 'many' of the abilities, and the Int score minimum isn't listed.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Could you use entomanthropy? Or play an incarnate construct effigy?

Or even play an intelligent magic item worn by the spider who orders it around?

The whole point of the exercise is to keep the [mindless] around, so I don't think either of those would work that well.  The intelligent item I'm unsure of, since I think by strict RAW they'd be detected by mindsight.


Iconic manifestation looks absolutely perfect.  What's better than a druid?  A druid that can reselect his skills and feats every day.

And as an effective tactic in an arena, you can just suddenly vanish from mindsight at will.  Swift action casting time (plus some sort of invisibility or concealment-granting spell) makes your disappearance seem completely legit.

[Prime32]

I'm pretty sure a mindless creature can't take class levels...

Monster of legend to gain cleric casting might work though.

[PhaedrusXY]

Is there some way to temporarily get an int score?  Because it would be all kinds of useful to dynamically allocate your feats and skill points

Polymorph Any Object. You could even go the other way, and start out as something else and then turn into one of these to be mindless.


Also... did anyone else imagine something... not safe for work... when they saw the thread title?

[McPoyo]

Also... did anyone else imagine something... not safe for work... when they saw the thread title?

Nope

[Surreal]

Also... did anyone else imagine something... not safe for work... when they saw the thread title?

Nope

It's a merkin!

But not really, although I was the one who pointed out the hairy spider in another thread.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I'm pretty sure a mindless creature can't take class levels...

Monster of legend to gain cleric casting might work though.

I'm going from the DMG here

Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels, such as a gargoyle, a PC (as an exceptional individual) can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.

Actually, I'm a little torn now - this actually seems like a circumstance where VoP is less of a trap, by virtue of being able to pick it up using only flaw-granted feats.

[Prime32]

Actually, I'm a little torn now - this actually seems like a circumstance where VoP is less of a trap, by virtue of being able to pick it up using only flaw-granted feats.

Depends on how your DM interprets the rules for smaller-than-normal magic items.

[LargePrime]

can you control the spider like a robot and it retain its mindless nature?

Does that work for arena rules?