Author Topic: What would we use in 3.7?  (Read 3059 times)

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Straw_Man

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What would we use in 3.7?
« on: June 19, 2008, 06:18:33 PM »

  A lot of us have read 4E and opinions have been mixed though on the whole positive among the us. The one's who don't are going to keep working at 3.5 and homebrewing it till its perfect.

What would we port over from $E and how would we implement it within the existing system?


  This is a labour of love for me, and this thread is up for people attempting similar things to share ideas and work together. Not an imposition of my ideas or opinions on the relative merits of 4E vs 3.5 vs. homebrew. Systemheads & homebrewers would get the most use of this I think.

  Feel free to use, abuse and modify anything you read here. If it's original material credit would be appropriate but not mandatory. This is a public domain thread after all.

And most definitely feel free to volunteer to design & playtest.

Some things I'm personally fiddling with: -

[spoiler]1) Fixed HD per level - Done! Simple if we take an average or a max of present HD, but does that skew the difficulty of battles? Playtests need to be done.

2) At will powers  - frigging brilliant. Playing around with using a system similar to the Shadowcaster where lower level powers/spells are at will. Again this hoses martial characters though. Ideas?

3) Folded in skill checks - 80% awesome. Love simpler more abstract skills like Perception & Stealth. Miss my perform, UMD, and crafts. Simple YMMV fix to personal preference.

4) Push & pull powers for strategy. Pretty much NEEDS a minisboard, but big deal. Love the fact that non-spellcasters can contribute more than damage. Ideas?

5) Spells as attack rolls - really iffy. REALLY IFFY. Maybe some spells; as it is BC spells are strong level 1-4 but become awesome past 5. A listing of Tier 5 spells can be made and attempted to be modified. Personally rather fond of a world that has 'common' spells and 'uber' spells in it.Playtests need to be done.
[/spoiler]
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Risada

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2008, 07:47:30 PM »
Alright then....

1) I can say something about this: Currently I'm playing in a 3.5 campaing where everything (mobs and PCs) get full HD per level. The good thing is that even the Wizard isn't terribly squishy, while the Big Stupid Fighter get large amounts of HP... the "bad" thing is that unless the party have an uber charger or something that OHKO mobs, the combat is going to take some more (maybe 2 more turns)...

2) Well..... maybe making some cantrips or 1st level spells at will (at will Magic Missile? I'm in!!), but you have to be careful when choosing which ones to make at will, or else it's gonna be either too good or too bad...

3) Put UMD and Perform and (almost) everyone is happy...

4) This is somewhat similar to Bull Rush, and since I'm not very familiar with it, not gonna comment...

5) There are some spells that require attack rolls... I don't think more spells need to be like this...

Well.... even though I'm busy with some college crap, I want to help you in any way I can, be it design or playtesting....

EDIT: I guess you know about this, but since you want to add 4e stuff, the final products will be diferent... making the "union" impossible....

Prime32

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2008, 08:03:22 PM »
Well, I already proposed a new section for this, and as for SLAs at will, I was working on this version of the sorcerer.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 08:34:51 PM »
Well, I like the at will spell idea too.  The trick is to keep it weak, so it isn't nuts.  Think of something like a direct damage reserve feat that does 1d6 at level 1.  If the range and AoE are kept small, then it won't step on the toes of other spells.  I suppose an easy route would be to let the player choose a reserve feat at level 1 (with some exceptions), that always works as if the player had a 1st level spell reserved (and would work at that level too).

I like the $E.  I don't know if that's a typo, but damn is it funny!
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

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[/spoiler]

DaveTheMagicWeasel

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 10:21:01 PM »
1) Most games I've been in have just used the average.  And imx damage outstrips HP anyway, so maxing out the dice shouldn't be too big an issue (assuming reasonably optimized PCs).

2) Low-level spells as at-will is the obvious.  For melee, at-will ToB powers possibly (rewrite the readied/granted tables to acount for it).  However, both would have the problem that they weren't designd for it - things like Fabricate as an at-will would be too much, and Emerald Razor at-will would be ridiculously strong.  Not sure this can be done without an extensive rewrite.  Probably best just to give a bonus reserve feat or two (maybe make em stronger?), but even a weak at-will power means giving something to the most powerful classes in the game.  A massive rewrite could be an option - e.g. Wizards get much fewer spell slots, but certain spells have an at-will ability - e.g. if you prepare Fireball you get an at-will fiery burst similar to the reserve feat.  It'd be a big task to write a whole new system tho.  No idea how to translate it to melee, but they've already got at-will stuff anyway.

3) *shrug* I just give everyone Able Learner for free - streamlines the skill system nicely as it gets rid of cross-class premium and the need to track at which level points were spent on certain skills.  Folding them in is easy to do as well.

4) Hard to make this work imo.  Push and Pull for small distances (e.g. 1 or 2 squares) is meaningful when shifting is a move action, but in 3.5 with the 5 ft step it's meaningless.  Just look at things that move you 5 feet - have you ever seen anyone take the Tiger Claw feat in ToB?  Or Pushback from the MinisHB?  Best idea I can think of is to change the Massive Damage rules - instead of save vs death, if you exceed the threshold then you get a free bull rush (and don't have to move with them).  Large monsters (who deal high damage and have big size mods to bull rush checks) would be very cool, but very deadly, so would probably require a CR increase, and Large PCs just got better (and the Small ones got worse).

5) Ranged touch spells work, normal attacks rolls just won't work in a game of varying BAB progressions, no implement bonuses, etc.  You could use "attacker rolls" where everyone basically takes 10 on saves, and the attacker rolls to beat that DC, but imo it opens up more problems than it's worth (mainly, what natural 20s and 1s now mean).

RobbyPants

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 11:04:45 PM »
Also, if you're looking for a guideline on which spells shouldn't be at will or per-encounter, check out the table in Unearthed Arcana's recharge magic system.  I'm not suggesting you adopt the system, but rather, check out the recharge times.  Anything that's not general probably shouldn't be an at-will spell.  Some of the 5 minutes or 30 minute ones might make better per-encounter spells. 
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bhu

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 11:41:42 PM »
Monsters saves, BAB etc based on what their role is, not their type.  Making a big brute with a Fey Type is a bitch.  Ive been considering giving htem their saves/BAB/skills based on what function they perform in game, with their abilities (senses, immunities, etc) based on Type.

Ubernoob

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2008, 01:31:57 AM »
1) I haven't played in a game that rolled hp since my very first game of D&D.  Avg almost everywhere since.  Once in a while (when I DM noobs) I give PCs max per HD.
2) At will every round is completely flavorless and not needed.  It's just swing your sword with a name.  The at will powers are detrimental IMO.
3) I play with a group that never uses cross class rates (ala able learner).
4) There are plenty of ways in 3.5
5) Eh, players roll all the dice (UA) sorta does this.  Not my style.
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Morokael

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2008, 01:56:38 AM »
I liked that Str/Con was for Fort Saves, Dex/Int was for Reflex and Wis/Cha was for Will Saves... but I'm crazy.

My gaming group is against not rolling for HP. They all love it. They hoot and holler when someone rolls a full die, and quietly console someone who rolls a 1. There was actually a huge thread on this on the Paizo (Pathfinder) forums, with some people being 'grognards' who roll and keep their 1s, some people in the middle with house-rules to make rolling 1s less likely, and some people giving full HP.

I liked the consolidated skill lists (why are search and spot different skills?), but I actually like ranks in skills. Again, I'm crazy. I wouldn't mind everything being 1 skill point = 1 rank (basically able learner for free for everyone), but in addition give a +1 class bonus to a character's class skills. Multi-classed characters get +1 to all class skills, it doesn't stack. Possibly slightly consolidate the lists (not as much as pathfinder / 4E do it).

Other than that, I didn't think 4E stuff belonged in DnD. I think it was a well-balanced, playable system (although very combat based) - it just didn't taste like DnD to me. It was a different game system, just using the same words. (Trying not to 4.0 bash)

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Orion

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2008, 11:03:38 PM »
I use "per session" abilities a lot in Phoenix and I think they're great. "Per day" is way too easy to spug ("We spend two weeks getting there? Great. I can 14 objects of 1000gp value and sell them when we arrive."), and "at will," though appropriate for some things, is also far, far to open to abuse. "Per session" makes each game feel a bit like an episode of a show or an issue of a comic book, and that means that you inspire some cinematic drama. Each session, people have to think "When do I use my Iconic Attack?" (or whatever). I like that.

Sirperry

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2008, 11:01:50 PM »
Chemus and I are working on a homebrew of our own as well.  Rather than stick with standard 3.5 spells or going to an at will system, we've settled on a variant spellpoint system as a middle ground.  We're trying to simplify the complicated aspects of 3.5 (grapple, bull rush, et al).  We're also trying to make all monsters equal in power to all other monsters (and PCs) of equal HD, in an effort to further balance the game.
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Balthanon

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 01:54:32 AM »
Personally, I'm really hoping someone makes an attempt at porting over the XP for monster challenges system.  I think that could be a big boon to 3.5 games going forward, though it would definitely be difficult.  Aside from, well, the monsters, I liked most of what was in the Monster Manual. :|  (Well, truthfully, the monsters weren't that bad, just 1 dimensional-- modifying them does look to be more of a pain going forward though.)

Personally, I'm going to tend more towards the Tome of Battle variety for handling powers and abilities for characters.  Just handing out at wills seems less interesting than being able to refresh encounter powers.  I did that (adding maneuvers + refresh) to a number of low-powered classes in my campaign and I liked the end result.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 10:53:33 AM by Balthanon »

nemafow

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 04:33:00 AM »
As stated below, I would love to see the XP tables ect ported over. Its so much easier to work out the XP for your group, however in saying that, it is weird when working out a difficult combat can go up to 3-4 EL's higher than the group average... Even at first level.

Chemus

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Re: What would we use in 3.7?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 08:05:47 AM »
As Sirperry noted, he and I are coming along pretty well in replacing the core rule-set with our own variations.

There's probably little that we've not touched on in the Core, but we've altered Armor, HP, Critical hits, Spells, Spellcasting, Class progressions, Monsters are, as mentioned a WIP, and a bit more.

One thing that we're particularly proud of is our 'unique' fighter 'fix'. It goes thus: Paizo presented combat feats that can only be used one at a time. The fighter, however, may use 1 extra per 4 or 5 levels. So a paladin may use cleave or power attack, but the fighter may use both at once.

The power level is very hard to keep in check, but we're trying our best to be on guard against power-creep.

We'll eventually get organized enough to post our own thread, but we've been on this for quite a while, and for most of that time had no clue that the BG boards existed. Didn't want to post it on Failmax and get our brains in a jar.
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