Author Topic: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)  (Read 18091 times)

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Anklebite

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2010, 12:57:45 AM »
Indeed a level of fighter with those variants would be a good idea. Combine with 3 levels of rogue you would end up with 5d6 +20 on all of your sneak attacks assuming the rest of your levels are swordsage. And you could take one of those substitution levels that remove your rogue trapfinding like the poison use one from DotU if you do not plan to invest many points into it. Also you get evasion twice so you could trade one of them out for ray reflection (CM).

Ray reflection can be nice but there's also the option of Feign Death from the Elder Evils (I think?...) which trades evasion for the ability to play dead so well that only a Heal check of 15 can detect it.
ray delfection is more awesome.

that disintegrate that just missed you by 2 points? it pulls a U-turn and flies in the face of the prick who launched it at you.
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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2010, 01:09:12 AM »
Indeed a level of fighter with those variants would be a good idea. Combine with 3 levels of rogue you would end up with 5d6 +20 on all of your sneak attacks assuming the rest of your levels are swordsage. And you could take one of those substitution levels that remove your rogue trapfinding like the poison use one from DotU if you do not plan to invest many points into it. Also you get evasion twice so you could trade one of them out for ray reflection (CM).

Ray reflection can be nice but there's also the option of Feign Death from the Elder Evils (I think?...) which trades evasion for the ability to play dead so well that only a Heal check of 15 can detect it.
ray delfection is more awesome.

that disintegrate that just missed you by 2 points? it pulls a U-turn and flies in the face of the prick who launched it at you.

I'd say they both have their perks based on the type of character Torvon is initially trying to build/play.

Anklebite

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2010, 01:13:46 AM »
Indeed a level of fighter with those variants would be a good idea. Combine with 3 levels of rogue you would end up with 5d6 +20 on all of your sneak attacks assuming the rest of your levels are swordsage. And you could take one of those substitution levels that remove your rogue trapfinding like the poison use one from DotU if you do not plan to invest many points into it. Also you get evasion twice so you could trade one of them out for ray reflection (CM).

Ray reflection can be nice but there's also the option of Feign Death from the Elder Evils (I think?...) which trades evasion for the ability to play dead so well that only a Heal check of 15 can detect it.
ray delfection is more awesome.

that disintegrate that just missed you by 2 points? it pulls a U-turn and flies in the face of the prick who launched it at you.

I'd say they both have their perks based on the type of character Torvon is initially trying to build/play.
true, although the combat panache feat lets you play dead too.

but really, what's more fun than rerouting a few scorching rays back at their origin?
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Saxony

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2010, 04:15:38 AM »
Indeed a level of fighter with those variants would be a good idea. Combine with 3 levels of rogue you would end up with 5d6 +20 on all of your sneak attacks assuming the rest of your levels are swordsage. And you could take one of those substitution levels that remove your rogue trapfinding like the poison use one from DotU if you do not plan to invest many points into it. Also you get evasion twice so you could trade one of them out for ray reflection (CM).

Ray reflection can be nice but there's also the option of Feign Death from the Elder Evils (I think?...) which trades evasion for the ability to play dead so well that only a Heal check of 15 can detect it.
ray delfection is more awesome.

that disintegrate that just missed you by 2 points? it pulls a U-turn and flies in the face of the prick who launched it at you.

I'd say they both have their perks based on the type of character Torvon is initially trying to build/play.
true, although the combat panache feat lets you play dead too.

but really, what's more fun than rerouting a few scorching rays back at their origin?

Somehow applying free meta magic on them before rerouting them.

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Etarran

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2010, 07:23:28 AM »
Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 15 is also viable if you think int to damage is better than one extra die of sneak attack (it almost certainly is). Also worth considering is cross-class ranks in iaijutsu focus, for a sneak-attack-esque damage source, or even better a one- or three-level factotum dip.

Consider Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Factotum 1/ Swordsage 14, for ninth-level maneuvers, 4d6+20 sneak attack with assassin's stance and craven, int and dex to damage, and access to iaijutsu focus for some easy bonus damage. You also get pretty good hit dice, and get the magical +16 BAB if you can convince your DM to use fractional BAB.

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2010, 11:37:51 AM »
Also, you cannot ready a single maneuver more than once. I'm away from books and don't recall where it is.

@ Negative Zero & Saxony:
You can't ready a single maneuver several times.

Edit:

Blegh. CustServ says so, its not in the book. I don't think that CustServ house rule is valid.
This has been poping up a bit lately and once again I find my self siding with the Sage.
Assuming the posted question was along the lines of "can I ready the same maneuver twice and use it twice in a row?" of course.

Yes the rules them selves make no mention weather or not you can ready the same one multiple times. This does not mean you can and is not a point to say you can either. It does make a point that you cannot use the same maneuver twice without recovering so to ready the same maneuver twice as it provides zero benefit.

Quote from: The Tome of Battle, page 37 & 38, in the Marital Powers section
You can use a particular stance or maneuver as many times as you like in a single day, but each time you use a maneuvers, you temporary expend it--you lose a little of your mental focus, you exhaust some small portion of your personal ki or energy, or you finish the move out of position and can't immediately launch the same attack again without assuming the proper posture and mental state first. In other words, you can't use an expended maneuver again until you rest for a brief time or perform a specific action in combat that allows you to recover one or more expended maneuvers
There you go, by RAW if you use Ruby Nightmare Blade you cannot use Ruby Nightmare Blade again until you recover it even if you readied it four times.

Now it could be the question and answer only addressed readying rather than using the same maneuver twice (doubtful). In which case the rules make no point in telling you about which makes the Sage is still right as there are no rules to prove him wrong. It's just a matter of opinion and while your opinion has (little) value, but please .

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[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
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Torvon

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2010, 03:47:20 PM »
@ Genuine:
Thanks, that was *very* helpful.

Here's the thing, if you go:

With Rogue 12/Swordsage 8 You'll have 6d6 sneak attack, and an initiator level of 14 - access to seventh level manuevers. If you drop your build down to rogue 10/ Swordsage 10 you'll have 5d6 and 8th level manuevers. Rogue 8/ Swordsage 12 you'll have 4d6 and 9th level manuevers. You did say you wanted a more rogue-heavy build, which is why I originally said that the Rogue 12/Swordsage 8 was what you were after. Personally, like was said above, I'd make sure I had access to ninth level maneuvers - initiator levels aren't quite as great as caster levels, but it's still worth getting high.

A note, Shadowblade only gives Dex to damage if your using a Shadow Hand weapon and using a shadowhand stance. If you're always in Assassin's stance during combat this won't be a big deal, though.
I was planning on Islands of Blades, so that I will be basically always able to sneak in melee. Switch to Assassin's if I get a sneak without that.
Shadow Hand Weapons, yes, I find short swords kinda "brutish", might try to convince my DM to allow rapiers (with shortswords stats, I don't care, but I can't imagine this elegant and arrogant whispergnome with 2 ... shortwords).
And Rogue8/SS12 sounds fun, although I'll have to wait quite a bit until the 9th level maneuver. But that's what you get for that weird character, I guess. And he'll be fun to play before anyway, we'll start at level 1, so, that's a long way to go.


If you want to amp up the synergy even more, martial style weapons are great enhancements. A Shadow Hand enchantment costs +1, and so long as your in a Shadow Hand Stance or using a Shadow Hand maneuver you get an effective +3 attack and damage. It's nice.
Wow, +3 is a lot! Really nice, I just read through the paragraph TOM p. 149. Thanks. Doors wide open for abuse actually, seeing the sentence with double enchants. A bit overpowered, huh, +7 on a weapon.

With PrCs? If you're using two-handed weapons a two level dip into Bloodclaw Master is invaluable. If you can handle the feat cost, Master of Nine is always fun, and Shadow Hand Ninja can be a blast if you don't mind they monky feel to it.
I had not yet looked into them.

About TWF: I imagine the character as a fencer really. I can't possibly give him a 2 handed weapon, that just wouldn't fit. So I'm stuck with stuff like rapier, dagger, short swords etc. I don't necessarily need TWF, from the point of view of how I have the character in mind. But, although I'm rather new to D&D3.5, it looks like the character would totally suck without TWF, damage wise? I can deal SA with offhand weapon, too, right? And all the funny mongoose maneuvers give me additional attacks with BOTH weapons, right? So, If I get a second attack due to BAB, and I use a full round action, can I do main hand offhand (first attack) + main hand offhand (second one)? And deal 4* sneak damage?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

PRC:
* Bloodclaw Master doesn't fit, but I give you, the bonus is awesome. Maybe I can talk to my DM about it, and change the shifting part to something else. It looks worthless with the character's major weakness - strength6.
* Master of Nine: uh. Na, too much requirements.
* Shadow Sun Ninja: Ok, I read through it. My WI will be pretty low. And with my low strength, my unarmed attacks, and my unarmed damage will suck. So the whole "monk part" is pretty useless, I guess? Tough of the Shadows sounds funny, but it looks like I have enough stuff to do damage and don't need this? Can I also sneak using this? Melee touch attack sounds like I get to sneak every time I do it, and I can do it every third round? Do I read the correctly? Healing, hm. I could heal crazy amounts I sneak attack is allowed and also counts for healing? Flame of the Shadow Sun sounds useless, only against cold damage, and 2d6 fire damage isn't really worth anything, right? Third level offers nothing. Fourth level sounds fun, but not really gamebreaking. Although blind 1 round is pretty good, I reckon. Then again, my WIS will be around 10 or 12, so the DC won't be high, and it's against fortitude. How much levels would you recommend me to take, if at all?


@ Dark Samurai, Havok4
1 level Fighter sounds viable. And yes, poison, please! :)
I have to find ways to enhance this anyway, without sacrificing too much.

But you say I gain +1d6 SA with that. I can't find this in the description of the ACF.

Quote
Also you get evasion twice so you could trade one of them out for ray reflection (CM).
Doesn't that add up to imp. evasion or something? Like Uncanny DOdge (barbarian) + Uncanny Dodge (warblade) = improved uncanny dodge?


@ Etarran
Quote
Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 15 is also viable if you think int to damage is better than one extra die of sneak attack (it almost certainly is). Also worth considering is cross-class ranks in iaijutsu focus, for a sneak-attack-esque damage source, or even better a one- or three-level factotum dip.
Consider Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Factotum 1/ Swordsage 14, for ninth-level maneuvers, 4d6+20 sneak attack with assassin's stance and craven, int and dex to damage, and access to iaijutsu focus for some easy bonus damage. You also get pretty good hit dice, and get the magical +16 BAB if you can convince your DM to use fractional BAB.
Sorry for asking this, but what's fractional BAB?
I actually considered Swashbuckler, especially with the Arcane Stunt ACF on level 2. I'd also go for INT14, at least. But then again, is +2 or +3 damage on each attack really worth 3 levels Swashbucklerit? Sure, they have nice hit dies, great BAB, ok saves, and I get Weapon Finesse for free (which his the reason I'd dip into Swashbuckler first level quite early actually). Btw, what happens when I take Weapon Finesse @ level 1 and get it as free class feat later when dipping into Swashbuckler?

I read a bit into Factotum. You suggest 1level because of flexibility due to inspiration points? And 3 levels because of Brains of Brawn and Cunning Defense?

Not sure about Iaijutsu Master, sounds a bit ... too weird to me, background wise.



Where do I find the Gnomish Quick Razor?
Thanks

Torvon
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 04:03:02 PM by Torvon »
Quote from: Saxony
Sword Sage is like Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler on steroids with less BAB.

Havok4

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2010, 04:50:51 PM »
But you say I gain +1d6 SA with that. I can't find this in the description of the ACF.

Doesn't that add up to imp. evasion or something? Like Uncanny DOdge (barbarian) + Uncanny Dodge (warblade) = improved uncanny dodge?

Sorry for asking this, but what's fractional BAB?
I read a bit into Factotum. You suggest 1level because of flexibility due to inspiration points? And 3 levels because of Brains of Brawn and Cunning Defense?

Where do I find the Gnomish Quick Razor?


We are talking about combining two separate ACFs, one that exchanges fighter feats for sneak attack and another that gives dex to damage vs flat footed foes (DotU). You can take both.
Evasion does not work that way, except for  the master thrower PRC which calls itself out a specific exception.
Fractional BaB is from Uneaerthed arcana page 73 and makes BaB based on the amount gained from each class level +1, +3/4,+1/2 rather then the table look up the normal rules do, the primary benefit of this is it helps make dipping less than full BaB viable for low level characters.
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gorfnad

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2010, 05:23:37 PM »
Whisper Gnome with sneak attack...
The feats Silencing Strike (RoS) combined with either Magic in the Blood (PGtF) or Extra Silence (RoS) work very nicely in dealing with spellcasters who don't have the feat Silent Spell.

Saxony

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2010, 06:47:34 PM »

About TWF: I imagine the character as a fencer really. I can't possibly give him a 2 handed weapon, that just wouldn't fit. So I'm stuck with stuff like rapier, dagger, short swords etc. I don't necessarily need TWF, from the point of view of how I have the character in mind. But, although I'm rather new to D&D3.5, it looks like the character would totally suck without TWF, damage wise? I can deal SA with offhand weapon, too, right? And all the funny mongoose maneuvers give me additional attacks with BOTH weapons, right? So, If I get a second attack due to BAB, and I use a full round action, can I do main hand offhand (first attack) + main hand offhand (second one)? And deal 4* sneak damage?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Every attack does Sneak Attack damage. So if you have 4 attacks (doesn't matter how you got 4 attacks) and all 4 hit, you deal 4xSneak Attack damage. Two Weapon Fighting works with this. Remember you will have to get Improved TWF and Greater TWF if you want to get more than one extra attack with your offhand weapon.

Quote
Sorry for asking this, but what's fractional BAB?
Fractional BAB is as follows. A Wizard gets 2 BAB every 4 levels. In DnD, you always round down if you get a fraction (because DnD is a downer, you round  down :D). So it's the same thing to say a Wizard gets 1/ 2BAB every level, but at 1st level, it only has 1/2 BAB and thus rounded down is 0.

But let's say you take a level in Sorcerer (Don't ever make a Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1). Sorcerer also gets 1/2 BAB. But according to the tables, you'd get no increased BAB from taking a level of Sorcerer. If you combine the two 1/2's of 1 BAB together that you got from Wizard 1 and Sorcerer 1, you get a full BAB.

"Fractional BAB" really means you conserve the fractions of BAB that each level grants you instead of just going by the tables and adding a BAB whenever they tell you to. It is helpful only for multiclass characters who mix and match between classes that aren't Full BAB (1 BAB per level). If you did a Fighter 1/Barbarian 1, you'd have 2 BAB, no need to worry about fractions there.

Quote
I actually considered Swashbuckler, especially with the Arcane Stunt ACF on level 2. I'd also go for INT14, at least. But then again, is +2 or +3 damage on each attack really worth 3 levels Swashbucklerit? Sure, they have nice hit dies, great BAB, ok saves, and I get Weapon Finesse for free (which his the reason I'd dip into Swashbuckler first level quite early actually). Btw, what happens when I take Weapon Finesse @ level 1 and get it as free class feat later when dipping into Swashbuckler?
Swashbuckler 3 is only good you have a very high Intelligence (20+) if all you want is Int to damage. The Arcane Stunt ACF is kind of cool, but simply taking more levels in SwordSage will completely blow the single parlor trick out of the water. Sword Sage is like Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler on steroids with less BAB. I would suggest taking only 1 level of Swashbuckler if at all. It's kind of an empty class.

If you're going to take Swashbuckler at all, why not just take Swashbuckler at level 1? You'd get more hit points, have 1 BAB, and get Weapon Finesse automatically at level 1. Just hitting stuff at level 1 is pretty difficult. If you go Rogue 1 with a strength of 6, that's a -2 for your attack roll. Pretty terrible.

How about this?
Swashbuckler 1/Rogue 1/Sword Sage 18

Or

Swashbuckler 1/Rogue 3/Sword Sage 16.

The Sword Sage is the real power house in the suggested builds. The 1 level dips provide some nice tricks, but the Sword Sage is really whats going to carry you through the late levels. Certain high level maneuvers are very powerful. I'd suggest you read through every Sword Sage maneuver that's 7th level or above to get a feel for what the class can do. Look for things which sound obviously good, and ones that are kinda tricksy. If the maneuver description goes into a lot of detail but you don't quite understand how it could be used, it's a tricksy maneuver. There is probably a powerful combo lurking about in the fine details (For instance, the Setting Sun 8th level Ghostly Defense Stance uses concealment somehow. Swordsages have ways to generate concealment, so there's a combo there which isn't readily obvious. You'd have to find out how you can get concealment to know just how powerful the stance was.).

Quote
I read a bit into Factotum. You suggest 1level because of flexibility due to inspiration points? And 3 levels because of Brains of Brawn and Cunning Defense?

Not sure about Iaijutsu Master, sounds a bit ... too weird to me, background wise.

Where do I find the Gnomish Quick Razor?
Thanks

Torvon
Dunno about the Factotum levels. I'm not sure if they're well suited for a 1 level dip. 3 levels grants one's Intelligence modifier to Strength and Dexterity checks. This includes various special melee attacks like tripping and disarming, Strength and Dex based skills, and Initiative. (Attack rolls and damage rolls aren't strength checks)

Like with Swashbuckler, I would only suggest it if you have a very high Int (20+), because Swordsage levels will probably give you more powerful things. This is doubly true if you don't ever plan on attempting to trip or disarm. And +2 to Strength and Dex skills isn't very useful. +2 to Initiative is kind of useful (but not worth 3 levels). Sword Sage also boost Initiative checks, at a rate of +1 to Initiative per 5 levels.

I would only go Iaijutsu Master if you somehow plan on getting max ranks in Iaijutsu focus and have a VERY high charisma (25+). The Iaijutsu Master makes the bonus damage from Iaijutsu Focus reach insane levels, but only if you have a monster charisma and are willing to stick it out for 5 levels. A Sword Sage with Shadow Blade should have Dexterity as their high ability. Adding in a huge desire for Charisma just adds another attribute dependence. Also, Iaijutsu Focus is less dependable than maneuvers. You need someone to be flatfooted to use it, whereas most maneuvers just work straight up.

Gnomish Quick Razor is in Races of Stone. It's way useful for Iaijutsu Focus characters, because it can be drawn and sheathed as free actions, allowing for each attack in a full attack routine to utilize Iaijutsu Focus (because Iaijutsu Focus requires that you draw a melee weapon then strike with it). Normally you'd draw your weapon (hopefully with Quickdraw), get one attack with Iaijutsu Focus, then just regular attacks for the rest of your full attack routine.
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gorfnad

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2010, 04:20:42 AM »
About TWF: I imagine the character as a fencer really. I can't possibly give him a 2 handed weapon, that just wouldn't fit. So I'm stuck with stuff like rapier, dagger, short swords etc. I don't necessarily need TWF, from the point of view of how I have the character in mind. But, although I'm rather new to D&D3.5, it looks like the character would totally suck without TWF, damage wise? I can deal SA with offhand weapon, too, right? And all the funny mongoose maneuvers give me additional attacks with BOTH weapons, right? So, If I get a second attack due to BAB, and I use a full round action, can I do main hand offhand (first attack) + main hand offhand (second one)? And deal 4* sneak damage?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Quote
Number of Sneak Attacks

Provided it is possible for you to make a sneak attack at all, you can make multiple sneak attacks when you use the full attack action. For example, if you have a higher initiative result at the beginning of an encounter, your foe is flat-footed and every attack you make is a sneak attack. The same is true if you flank your foe.

Anything that allows you to make extra attacks during the full attack action gets you extra sneak attacks as well: fighting with two weapons, the haste spell, and the monk's flurry of blows are the most common ways of getting extra attacks.

Remember the earlier note about invisibility effects, however. If you're relying on invisibility to set up a sneak attack, you'll only have the effect for the first attack you make during your turn. You'll still get all your extra attacks, but only the first will be a sneak attack. You don't have this problem if you're using a greater invisibility effect.
For other questions about sneak attack reading through these links may help:
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks Part One - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks Part Two - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks Part Three - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks Part Four - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 07:14:47 AM by gorfnad »

Etarran

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2010, 06:38:15 AM »
I actually considered Swashbuckler, especially with the Arcane Stunt ACF on level 2. I'd also go for INT14, at least. But then again, is +2 or +3 damage on each attack really worth 3 levels Swashbucklerit? Sure, they have nice hit dies, great BAB, ok saves, and I get Weapon Finesse for free (which his the reason I'd dip into Swashbuckler first level quite early actually). Btw, what happens when I take Weapon Finesse @ level 1 and get it as free class feat later when dipping into Swashbuckler?

I read a bit into Factotum. You suggest 1level because of flexibility due to inspiration points? And 3 levels because of Brains of Brawn and Cunning Defense?

Not sure about Iaijutsu Master, sounds a bit ... too weird to me, background wise.

Torvon
There are a few reasons to take swashbuckler levels, though saxony does make very good points about how the power of the build is going to come from swordsage no matter what you do. The one-to-three-level dips everyone is suggesting are to give the character a few additional tricks and help with the flavour requirement of the build.

Firstly, this kind of build tends to be very strapped for feats: at the very least you are going to want, most likely, the two-weapon-fighting chain, shadow hand weapons, adaptive style, and craven. This is a lot of feats that are locked in, and the free weapon finesse from swashbuckler helps offset this problem.

Secondly, though the extra maneuvers (and faster access) are probably better on the whole, sneak attack damage builds want to make lots and lots of attacks, to maximize their bonus damage. Getting in four levels a full-BAB class will get you to 16 BAB, which gives you an extra iterative attack. Since fighter 1 and swashbuckler 3 are probably the right numbers to take those classes in if you are going to take them at all, this works out really nicely.

Lastly, in regards to int to damage: remember that it's not just +2 to damage because of your 14 intelligence. It's +2 to damage for your main hand, and then +2 to damage for your off-hand, and then +2 to damage for each of your iteratives.... And, as soon as you get something that boosts your int (say, a belt of magnificence, a good investment for this type of character regardless), your damage scales upwards. It's the scaling feature of the int to damage that makes it good.

Unfortunately, if you take weapon finesse and then get it as a bonus, the feat is wasted - however, most reasonable DMs will let you retrain it or select a bonus feat with a similar flavour at that point. Just make sure to talk to them ahead of time, and there shouldn't be an issue.

The main reason I suggest one level of factotum is because they get all skills as class skills, which makes it a great dip for any character that wants odd skills. The main purpose of this is to get better access to iaijutsu focus: this skill gives you bonus damage that works a lot like sneak attack in many ways, and which can come from the same sort of standpoint, flavour-wise, so long as you are willing to rehash the fluff a little bit. Because it's a skill, it takes a much more minimal investment of build resources to get access to than does sneak attack, and provides a very high rate of return. From a power standpoint, it's your best option on many (perhaps even most) damage builds. Even if you do go down that route, though, I wouldn't suggest taking iaijutsu master, because it takes too much effort for not enough gain for this build.

Hope that helps!

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2010, 11:18:19 AM »
@ Havok4:
Thanks for explaining. Rogue/Sneak_Fighter/etc sounds very viable indeed.


@ Saxony:
If you're going to take Swashbuckler at all, why not just take Swashbuckler at level 1? You'd get more hit points, have 1 BAB, and get Weapon Finesse automatically at level 1. Just hitting stuff at level 1 is pretty difficult. If you go Rogue 1 with a strength of 6, that's a -2 for your attack roll. Pretty terrible.
Because the skills suck ass :). It's really a difference between 24 and 40 skill points right in the start. Feats will be be a big issue (I'll write later why), so I don't really need that Weapon Finesse right there.
And with 20 Dex, I'll have a +5 to hit on my light crossbow @ rogue first level, and with a bit of alchemist's fire I can even make ranged touch attacks. I'll survive until I get Weapon Finesse @ level 3 if I don't go for Swashbuckler. Or maybe even @ Level 2 if I go for sneak-fighter @ level 2, take it as Fighter Bonus Feat.

Thanks for the other very helpful information also!


@ Etarran:
Quote
Firstly, this kind of build tends to be very strapped for feats: at the very least you are going to want, most likely, the two-weapon-fighting chain, shadow hand weapons, adaptive style, and craven. This is a lot of feats that are locked in, and the free weapon finesse from swashbuckler helps offset this problem.
We agreed in our group that we gain feats every odd level, so 3/5/7/9 instead of the normal 3/6/...
Also, we might get a bonus feat @ level 1.
But yes, basically TWF all the way. Craven. Shadow Blade (taht's what you mean with "shadow hand weapons", right?), Weapon Finesse. Craven, Adaptive Style. Staggering Strike is nice, as is GloomRazor. Agile Athlete is good for level 1 I assume, since my strength will be 6 and I want to make those huge jumps for tiger claw school? Does that make sense, or are there other ways?

About the BAB, you're right of course.

About that jaijutsu thing: ok. Let's say I take one level factotum and put all skill opints into Jaijkutsu focus. Which is weird, because it sounds rather weird from an ingame-point-of-view. (hey, I suddenly became really good at this one thing I never heard of before). So, whenever I do the attack, I have to have the weapon in the scabbard. I take it out, attack, and put it in again. I gain damage equal to my jaijutsu check, so let's say with 8 points in there, and an average of 10 with the D20, I gain 10+8=18 damage? On each attack?
Now, how does that work with the free actions. In a full round attack, let's say I have BAB 7/2, and iTWF. I can attack 4 times.
I still don't have more than 1 free action in the full round, right? So I can take the weapon out (if it's a gnomish quick razor), attack the first times with both weapons + SA + jaijutsu damage. Now I attack normally, without the jaijutsu damage, because I can't sheath and unsheath the weapon before the second row of attacks?

Furthermore, Gnomish Quickrazor is not possible with Shadow Maneuvers. So I'd need Quick Draw for that, to get the Draw from a Move into a Free Action?


Btw, I just checked out the stats, it's quite amazing what you can do with them (DM gives us 8/10/12/14/16/18, which is 38pt buy I think).
So I could go
STR 8-2
DEX 18+2
CON 12+2
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 14-2

20 DEX, funny low STR (I'll *so* roleplay this, haha ... "who needs to be able to lift a chair when he can do THIS ..."), decent CON, 14INT is good for skillpoints and maybe factoctum or swashbuckler buffs, WIS14 is good for +2 AC, and CHA12 is less than I want to, but well, that's life I guess. I won't be a bluff monster, but still be ok with most of the skill checks.
Considering going for intimidate or bluff to get another chance for sneak attack, hm.

Thanks for clarifying.
ta-ta
Torvon

(PS.: atm I'd favour rogue1/sneak-attack-fighter1/rogue2 (3d6 SA in 4 levels)/Swordsage, maybe up to level 9/Bloodclaw2/rest Swordsage; but I still play aroudn with the ideas of swashbuckler & factoctum, since both concepts not only seem to offer nice benefits, but also since both classes fit the idea of the personality of the cahracter I have in mind)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 02:09:40 PM by Torvon »
Quote from: Saxony
Sword Sage is like Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler on steroids with less BAB.

Havok4

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2010, 12:41:54 PM »


Quote
Agile Athlete is good for level 1 I assume, since my strength will be 6 and I want to make those huge jumps for tiger claw school? Does that make sense, or are there other ways?

There are a set of really cheap boots in the MIC that do the same thing, the boots of agile leaping (600 GP).
Quote
About that jaijutsu thing: ok. Let's say I take one level factotum and put all skill opints into Jaijkutsu focus. Which is weird, because it sounds rather weird from an ingame-point-of-view. (hey, I suddenly became really good at this one thing I never heard of before). So, whenever I do the attack, I have to have the weapon in the scabbard. I take it out, attack, and put it in again. I gain damage equal to my jaijutsu check, so let's say with 8 points in there, and an average of 10 with the D20, I gain 10+8=18 damage? On each attack?
Now, how does that work with the free actions. In a full round attack, let's say I have BAB 7/2, and iTWF. I can attack 4 times.
I still don't have more than 1 free action in the full round, right? So I can take the weapon out (if it's a gnomish quick razor), attack the first times with both weapons + SA + jaijutsu damage. Now I attack normally, without the jaijutsu damage, because I can't sheath and unsheath the weapon before the second row of attacks?

You get infinite (although limited by DM fiat) free actions each round but you cannot resheth a weapon as a free action, so you would have to draw multiple weapons in the same round, you can resheth a quickrazor as a free action which is why it is so good for iajutsu builds. And iajutsu focus has a table of how much extra damage you use and you have to roll for each attack. An average of 18 would give you +2d6 damage, which is nice for just some skill points.

Quote
Furthermore, Gnomish Quickrazor is not possible with Shadow Maneuvers. So I'd need Quick Draw for that, to get the Draw from a Move into a Free Action?

You can still use shadow maneuvers, the only thing that would not work is your shadow blade feat, which could be fixed by making the weapon a +1 aptitude weapon later on.

Also where did your 16 in your stat array go, you do not appear to use in in your stat setup.

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2010, 02:08:44 PM »


Quote
Quote
Furthermore, Gnomish Quickrazor is not possible with Shadow Maneuvers. So I'd need Quick Draw for that, to get the Draw from a Move into a Free Action?

You can still use shadow maneuvers, the only thing that would not work is your shadow blade feat, which could be fixed by making the weapon a +1 aptitude weapon later on.

I forgot about aptitude weapons - it's the other truly awesome weapon enhancement in ToB - though I have seen some uses regarded as cheesy exploits. It is a +1 ability that allows the weapon to work with any feat you possess that requires a specific weapon to work.

Imagine a character has the followign: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Broadsword), Weapon Focus (Longbow), Shadowblade (Shadowhand Weapons), Improved Critical (Club), you can use each feat with any weapon bearing the Aptitude enhancement.

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2010, 03:55:33 PM »
@ Havok4:
Thanks for explaining. Rogue/Sneak_Fighter/etc sounds very viable indeed.


@ Saxony:
If you're going to take Swashbuckler at all, why not just take Swashbuckler at level 1? You'd get more hit points, have 1 BAB, and get Weapon Finesse automatically at level 1. Just hitting stuff at level 1 is pretty difficult. If you go Rogue 1 with a strength of 6, that's a -2 for your attack roll. Pretty terrible.
Because the skills suck ass :). It's really a difference between 24 and 40 skill points right in the start. Feats will be be a big issue (I'll write later why), so I don't really need that Weapon Finesse right there.
And with 20 Dex, I'll have a +5 to hit on my light crossbow @ rogue first level, and with a bit of alchemist's fire I can even make ranged touch attacks. I'll survive until I get Weapon Finesse @ level 3 if I don't go for Swashbuckler. Or maybe even @ Level 2 if I go for sneak-fighter @ level 2, take it as Fighter Bonus Feat.

Thanks for the other very helpful information also!
You make good points there. I forgot about ranged weapons. So you don't need Weapon Finesse right away. I'm not sure how useful skill points are. Unless you need to get max ranks in a lot of skills, it's not strictly necessary.


Quote
@ Etarran:
Quote
Firstly, this kind of build tends to be very strapped for feats: at the very least you are going to want, most likely, the two-weapon-fighting chain, shadow hand weapons, adaptive style, and craven. This is a lot of feats that are locked in, and the free weapon finesse from swashbuckler helps offset this problem.
We agreed in our group that we gain feats every odd level, so 3/5/7/9 instead of the normal 3/6/...
Also, we might get a bonus feat @ level 1.
But yes, basically TWF all the way. Craven. Shadow Blade (taht's what you mean with "shadow hand weapons", right?), Weapon Finesse. Craven, Adaptive Style. Staggering Strike is nice, as is GloomRazor. Agile Athlete is good for level 1 I assume, since my strength will be 6 and I want to make those huge jumps for tiger claw school? Does that make sense, or are there other ways?

About the BAB, you're right of course.
Do not get Agile Athlete by itself. If you're going to do Tiger Claw jumping maneuvers, you have to specialize and use things (like the pounce ability and the Battle Jump feat) to truly make them powerful. Just using a few as a side thing isn't that great. Tiger Claw maneuvers also require you to have a lot of other Tiger Claw maneuvers to take them. Also, your jumping prowess will really be kicking in at level 9ish (Whenever you get the Leaping Dragon Stance). So don't worry about it at low levels.

With your strength, I wouldn't go for jumping. You're spreading yourself too thin and trying to "be good at everything" (IE: Spending a feat on Agile Athlete to be good at something which isn't your main gig). Just pick up something which magnifies your existing skills; that'll be more effecient. I feel that a high dexterity build with Sneak Attack is going to do better with focusing on Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind type stuff in general.

Quote
About that jaijutsu thing: ok. Let's say I take one level factotum and put all skill opints into Jaijkutsu focus. Which is weird, because it sounds rather weird from an ingame-point-of-view. (hey, I suddenly became really good at this one thing I never heard of before). So, whenever I do the attack, I have to have the weapon in the scabbard. I take it out, attack, and put it in again. I gain damage equal to my jaijutsu check, so let's say with 8 points in there, and an average of 10 with the D20, I gain 10+8=18 damage? On each attack?
Now, how does that work with the free actions. In a full round attack, let's say I have BAB 7/2, and iTWF. I can attack 4 times.
I still don't have more than 1 free action in the full round, right? So I can take the weapon out (if it's a gnomish quick razor), attack the first times with both weapons + SA + jaijutsu damage. Now I attack normally, without the jaijutsu damage, because I can't sheath and unsheath the weapon before the second row of attacks?

Furthermore, Gnomish Quickrazor is not possible with Shadow Maneuvers. So I'd need Quick Draw for that, to get the Draw from a Move into a Free Action?
You have the Iaijutsu Focus damage wrong. There's a table in the book Oriental Adventures which outlines how it works. You roll your Iaijutsu Focus check, then you look on the table to how many d6's that check gets you. I believe its [(Check result - 5)/5] d6's. So a roll of 20 would grant +3d6, a roll of 10 would grant +1d6, a roll of 13 would grant +1d6. It caps at 9d6 bonus damage.

Also, characters get an infinite amount of free actions in a round. It's up to DMs to limit them when they get ridiculous. The Gnome Quickrazor specifically says that to be used effectively, it must be drawn before attacking and sheathed after each attack.

You're right about the Gnome Quickrazor not working with Shadow Blade. It's up to you what you want to focus on. If you can reliably get people flatfooted and somehow find a way to get Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill for SwordSages, the average damage from a high roll (say 25-29) is +4d6. That's 3.5*4=14 average damage. If you think just using Shadow Blade will give you more damage on average, then go with that.

Getting people flatfooted and getting Iaijutsu Focus will be dicey.
If I say something about real world physics, and someone disagrees, assume I am right 90% of the time. This number goes up to 100% if I am late night posting - trust me, my star dust sibs.

Torvon

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2010, 08:05:54 PM »
Ah fuck, forum ate my post.

ARGL.

Thanks again guys, you're very helpful. Seriously, thank you for the input and patience.


Quote from: Havoc
There are a set of really cheap boots in the MIC that do the same thing, the boots of agile leaping (600 GP).
Thanks. Sounds good on the one hand, on the other I'll be stuck with those boots until the rest of my days when other people already wear boots of kickass+8. Hm.


Quote from: Havoc
Also where did your 16 in your stat array go, you do not appear to use in in your stat setup.
38 point buy, the stat array was just an example. And that array would actually suck for the char I have in mind, since I need high DEX, but have 3 secondary attributes (CON, WI, INT).


Quote from: Saxony
You make good points there. I forgot about ranged weapons. So you don't need Weapon Finesse right away. I'm not sure how useful skill points are. Unless you need to get max ranks in a lot of skills, it's not strictly necessary.
Yay I'm making sense. I'll talk about skill points later, but I feel like needing them. And rogue (8+INT) and ssage (6+INT) with decent INT sounds like a good base for a skill monkey.


Quote from: Saxony
Do not get Agile Athlete by itself. If you're going to do Tiger Claw jumping maneuvers, you have to specialize and use things (like the pounce ability and the Battle Jump feat) to truly make them powerful. Just using a few as a side thing isn't that great. Tiger Claw maneuvers also require you to have a lot of other Tiger Claw maneuvers to take them. Also, your jumping prowess will really be kicking in at level 9ish (Whenever you get the Leaping Dragon Stance). So don't worry about it at low levels.

With your strength, I wouldn't go for jumping. You're spreading yourself too thin and trying to "be good at everything" (IE: Spending a feat on Agile Athlete to be good at something which isn't your main gig). Just pick up something which magnifies your existing skills; that'll be more effecient. I feel that a high dexterity build with Sneak Attack is going to do better with focusing on Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind type stuff in general.
I'm really not sure about this. I very much like the idea of a highly mobile, jumping small battle gnome fencer.

The problem I see have with tiger claw maneuvers that many require a jump check DC of enemy armor. And all those fancy feats and skill tricks really don't help, because they don't help with my normal jump rank. Yes, I might get a competence bonus to jump, but that's usually to running jumps, or DC not doubled when doing standing jumps, etc. It doesn't affect the normal "jump DC = enemy AC". And that sucks big time. What's the matter with this discipline? Also, Leaping Dragon Stance ... why the HECK doesn't it give boni to what matters: jump maneuvers with DC enemy AC? Bah.
But I like the school a lot. Do you think it might work, although I have low STR? With the skill points I have, maxing jump doesn't sound too hard (I'll get +2 from tumble 5 ranks also, and lots of + from high movement rate).
Maybe we could work something out, without too much feats.

Battle Jump sounds so broken. Seriously, it makes me sad when I see that I have all this stuff and boni and feats and disciplines, and ONE feat doubles my damage output.
Bro-ken. I strongly dislike it, my group will consider it broken I guess, and it's from some eastern source as well. Hm.

Iaijutsu Focus: same, basically. Totally broken when you max it. Saw some swordsage builds who get 90% of their damage from this one thing.

Quote from: Saxony
Getting people flatfooted and getting Iaijutsu Focus will be dicey.
THAT sounds fun though. I love tactical playing. You need brains. Not like my barb/fighter charger. Charge + kill, thanksbai.  :bigeye


--- OK, SKILLS NOW  ---

Let's assume Rogue3/Fighter1/SwordsageX for now.

Max:
Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Jump (Tiger Discipline)? We talked about Jump above already.

Now, I'm not sure about:

  • Listen, Spot & Search: Rogues can use Search instead of Spot for finding traps, right? Then again, I can't see enemies with "Search". Can Spot also be used for Traps? Will I have enough points for maxing both spot & listen? Do I need Search at all?
  • Disarm Device & Pick Lock: Sounds awkward to get both high, but I guess I don't have another chance?
  • Sleight of Hand: there's a nice Skill Trick, but you need Quickdraw for it. Would be nice for the way I imagine the character, but a few ranks do suffice, I presume?
  • Balance: what do I need this for, except for the nice +2 Tumble when I get 5 ranks?
  • Disguise: hm. Maybe for the social adventuring part.
  • Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Sense Motive: that's a biggy. I want to play a Rogue with a decent Charisma. Now, I only get 12, otherwise I'd have to dump Wisdom from 14 to 10. With that I effectively lose -2 AC (Swordsage), and also quite some ranks on some important Wisdom skills. Can I play a "Charisma" rogue with CH12? I was told bluffing (in order to feint) is a waste, since it's feat expensive to make it a move and eventually a swift action. I also remember Imperious Command feat (DotU) +  Never OUtnumbered Skill Trick. But that's more for a cleric or buffer class to do, I guess, since I should be the one Coup-de-Gracing anway? Diplomacy, I don't imagine the character to be diplomatic. More arrogant, trickster, I might try to get through with bluffing.
  • Martial Lore: I guess I can put 2 points in it because you shouldn't play a Martial Adept without, but no need maxing? I guess I will reget not having points in it as soon as the DM comes up with a level 10 warblade bossmonster or something.
  • Use Magic Device: I don't really know how this works, but as far as I understand, to use high level magic items (e.g. wands) the DCs are quite high, so either max this, or skip it? Since it's a class skill for rogues, but not for Swordsages, huh, don't max it? I'd love to play this rogue with a lots of tricks up his sleave, so I like the idea of using magic items.


Am I missing important skills? IIajatsu Focus mayheps, but I'd need to discuss this with the DM.

Any skill tricks you would recommend for this build?
  • Acrobatic Backstab, obviously
  • Group Fake Out, but I was told feint isn't worth it?
  • Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command, although I doubt I should go for CHA15 and max intimidate? Imagine that lil' dude, 4ft high, intimidating 4 ogres with an arrogant smile  ...
  • Hidden Blade: sounds nice, but not sure if I should go for the prereqs.
  • Mosquito Bite. Funny, but useful?!
  • Shrouded Dance: nice I guess for a backstabber, but 5 ranks in dancing. Hm. Although concealment rocks. Can'T decide.
  • Spot the Weak POint: if I go for 12 ranks spot, I guess I'll definitely grab this. How often can I use this? Always? Then I could always SA?
  • Extreme Leap: sounds fun if I go for jumping, which I probably will. Combines will with Sudden Leap Maneuver!


ta-ta
T.

EDIT: also, isn't battle jump only for the taer race or something?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 08:51:35 PM by Torvon »
Quote from: Saxony
Sword Sage is like Arcane Stunt Swashbuckler on steroids with less BAB.

Havok4

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2010, 09:25:09 PM »


Quote from: Havoc
There are a set of really cheap boots in the MIC that do the same thing, the boots of agile leaping (600 GP).
Thanks. Sounds good on the one hand, on the other I'll be stuck with those boots until the rest of my days when other people already wear boots of kickass+8. Hm.


Better than having to spend a feat on it. Also there are rules for combining magic items in the MIC.

Also on the skills issue see if you can talk your DM into allowing able learner (RoD) for your character.

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2010, 10:30:48 PM »
Ah fuck, forum ate my post.

ARGL.

Thanks again guys, you're very helpful. Seriously, thank you for the input and patience.
No prob :D !

Quote from: Torvon
Quote from: Saxony
You make good points there. I forgot about ranged weapons. So you don't need Weapon Finesse right away. I'm not sure how useful skill points are. Unless you need to get max ranks in a lot of skills, it's not strictly necessary.
Yay I'm making sense. I'll talk about skill points later, but I feel like needing them. And rogue (8+INT) and ssage (6+INT) with decent INT sounds like a good base for a skill monkey.
When people say "skill monkey" they usually actually mean "Trap finder/disarmer" or "Factotum". You could be a skill monkey with a Rogue base and the right class skills with Sword Sage. If Sword Sage gets all the necessary skills as class skills (Absolute minimum: Search, Disable Device/Pick Locks), then you're good to go. If you think have lots of skills is cool, do that! Do what you think is fun. Even if its "not the right choice", you'll get experience and become better at building characters.

Also, ask your DM if you can combine Disable Device and Open Locks into one skill. It's a common house rule.

Quote from: Torvon
Quote from: Saxony
Do not get Agile Athlete by itself. If you're going to do Tiger Claw jumping maneuvers, you have to specialize and use things (like the pounce ability and the Battle Jump feat) to truly make them powerful. Just using a few as a side thing isn't that great. Tiger Claw maneuvers also require you to have a lot of other Tiger Claw maneuvers to take them. Also, your jumping prowess will really be kicking in at level 9ish (Whenever you get the Leaping Dragon Stance). So don't worry about it at low levels.

With your strength, I wouldn't go for jumping. You're spreading yourself too thin and trying to "be good at everything" (IE: Spending a feat on Agile Athlete to be good at something which isn't your main gig). Just pick up something which magnifies your existing skills; that'll be more effecient. I feel that a high dexterity build with Sneak Attack is going to do better with focusing on Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind type stuff in general.
I'm really not sure about this. I very much like the idea of a highly mobile, jumping small battle gnome fencer.

The problem I see have with tiger claw maneuvers that many require a jump check DC of enemy armor. And all those fancy feats and skill tricks really don't help, because they don't help with my normal jump rank. Yes, I might get a competence bonus to jump, but that's usually to running jumps, or DC not doubled when doing standing jumps, etc. It doesn't affect the normal "jump DC = enemy AC". And that sucks big time. What's the matter with this discipline? Also, Leaping Dragon Stance ... why the HECK doesn't it give boni to what matters: jump maneuvers with DC enemy AC? Bah.
But I like the school a lot. Do you think it might work, although I have low STR? With the skill points I have, maxing jump doesn't sound too hard (I'll get +2 from tumble 5 ranks also, and lots of + from high movement rate).
Maybe we could work something out, without too much feats.

Battle Jump sounds so broken. Seriously, it makes me sad when I see that I have all this stuff and boni and feats and disciplines, and ONE feat doubles my damage output.
Bro-ken. I strongly dislike it, my group will consider it broken I guess, and it's from some eastern source as well. Hm.

Iaijutsu Focus: same, basically. Totally broken when you max it. Saw some swordsage builds who get 90% of their damage from this one thing.
If using the jumping maneuvers sounds cool to you, go ahead and do it (and the gnome swashbucklery type jumping about does sound pretty cool). If there's 600 gp magic item which lets you put your Dex to jump checks, then it's viable. (I don't think spending a feat would have been worth it, but 600 gp is). Also, the thing about Jump DC = AC; it all depends on how high your DM runs AC. If its way low, you'll have an easy time. If its ridiculously high, you'd be best off avoiding those maneuvers.

Leaping Dragon Stance does something more than just increase jump distance by 10ft (Which is super powerful when combined with Battle Jump; an effective -40 to the jump DC when jumping vertically), it makes EVERY jump count as a running jump. It gives Sudden Leap a bit more utility and the jumping maneuvers can be executed without a runway of 20', just staying in place.

Leaping Dragon Stance is THE stance for characters focusing on jumping maneuvers.

Remember that Battle Jump gives you one single attack because of a charge. 1 attack at double damage isn't too powerful. Combining it with Pounce to get a full attack at double damage would be overpowered.

Iaijutsu Focus is similarly not overpowered.... by itself. It normally only applies to one attack in a full attack, and only when the foe is flatfooted. It gets cheesy when combined with a Gnome Quickrazor, but otherwise not really. It gets super cheesy when combined with Iaijutsu Master, a very high charisma, a Gnome Quickrazor, and a reliable method of getting foes flatfooted (Cloak of Deception maneuever (Shadow Hand 2) for instance, grants a full turn of flatfootednes). But if you're just using it in a non-insane way, it's okay.

Quote from: Torvon
--- OK, SKILLS NOW  ---

Let's assume Rogue3/Fighter1/SwordsageX for now.

Max:
Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Jump (Tiger Discipline)? We talked about Jump above already.

Now, I'm not sure about:

  • Listen, Spot & Search: Rogues can use Search instead of Spot for finding traps, right? Then again, I can't see enemies with "Search". Can Spot also be used for Traps? Will I have enough points for maxing both spot & listen? Do I need Search at all?
  • Disarm Device & Pick Lock: Sounds awkward to get both high, but I guess I don't have another chance?
  • Sleight of Hand: there's a nice Skill Trick, but you need Quickdraw for it. Would be nice for the way I imagine the character, but a few ranks do suffice, I presume?
  • Balance: what do I need this for, except for the nice +2 Tumble when I get 5 ranks?
  • Disguise: hm. Maybe for the social adventuring part.
  • Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Sense Motive: that's a biggy. I want to play a Rogue with a decent Charisma. Now, I only get 12, otherwise I'd have to dump Wisdom from 14 to 10. With that I effectively lose -2 AC (Swordsage), and also quite some ranks on some important Wisdom skills. Can I play a "Charisma" rogue with CH12? I was told bluffing (in order to feint) is a waste, since it's feat expensive to make it a move and eventually a swift action. I also remember Imperious Command feat (DotU) +  Never OUtnumbered Skill Trick. But that's more for a cleric or buffer class to do, I guess, since I should be the one Coup-de-Gracing anway? Diplomacy, I don't imagine the character to be diplomatic. More arrogant, trickster, I might try to get through with bluffing.
  • Martial Lore: I guess I can put 2 points in it because you shouldn't play a Martial Adept without, but no need maxing? I guess I will reget not having points in it as soon as the DM comes up with a level 10 warblade bossmonster or something.
  • Use Magic Device: I don't really know how this works, but as far as I understand, to use high level magic items (e.g. wands) the DCs are quite high, so either max this, or skip it? Since it's a class skill for rogues, but not for Swordsages, huh, don't max it? I'd love to play this rogue with a lots of tricks up his sleave, so I like the idea of using magic items.


Am I missing important skills? Iaijutsu Focus mayheps, but I'd need to discuss this with the DM.
Don't focus on a skill unless its a class skill for Sword Sages.

You can never use Spot to find a trap (I believe). And only Rogues can find traps with a Search DC higher than 20 (The good ones). You must have Search if you want to be a trap disarmer, which is half of what a Skill Monkey is (The other half is going Factotum and being ambiently awesome at skills in general).

Disable Device/Open Locks: Necessary for the trap disarmer, obviously. Ask your DM to combine them into one skill. If Sword Sages don't get this as a class skill, you can't be a trap disarmer (meaning, don't put any ranks in it unless its a class skill).

Martial Lore is a waste of time. Don't get ranks in it. Maybe 1 rank if it can't be used untrained. If you know Tome of Battle (and you should) and your DM knows Tome of Battle (and it should), you the player will be knowledgable enough about Tome of Battle stuff that you won't need a skill for your character to figure anything out.

UMD could be cool. I believe you just need to beat DC 20 checks to use wands and such. That's easy enough. I would suggest searching for "UMD build" or "UMD" to get good ideas. You may be persuaded to go this route.

Social Skills: It would probably be best to let someone who has Charisma as its primary stat do this. If you take too many roles in the party (I see striker damage dealer, trap finder/ disarmer, and comic relief already), you'll start stepping on people's toes. If no one is going Bluff or Diplomacy and you have the extra skill points after you've chosen all the "useful" skills, go right ahead. Sense Motive = meh. DM's usually leave the detective work to the Players, not the characters.

Sleight of Hand: More flavor than utility. If you want to play a sneaky character who hides items and steals them, this is for you. Otherwise not.

Disguise: As Sleight of Hand. It's really more flavor than use. It's use is also largely determined by your imagination and improvisation/lying abilities (When your DM has the town guard question you, you have to come with something believable). It's also more powerful in certain campaigns. If your DM likes Disguise, it'll show up more. If not, it'll be nonexistent. Ask your DM how the game will be played. If you want more disguise stuff to happen, tell the DM so more opportunities arise.

Balance: 'Nother meh skill. Depends on whether or not the DM cares about Balance or not.


Quote from: Torvon
EDIT: also, isn't battle jump only for the taer race or something?
I think you can qualify for regional requirements with 2 ranks of Knowledge Local (That Region) or something.
If I say something about real world physics, and someone disagrees, assume I am right 90% of the time. This number goes up to 100% if I am late night posting - trust me, my star dust sibs.

CyMage

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Re: min/max *this*: rogue/swordsage (or: swordsage with SAs)
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2010, 03:34:55 PM »
And with 20 Dex, I'll have a +5 to hit on my light crossbow @ rogue first level, and with a bit of alchemist's fire I can even make ranged touch attacks. I'll survive until I get Weapon Finesse @ level 3 if I don't go for Swashbuckler. Or maybe even @ Level 2 if I go for sneak-fighter @ level 2, take it as Fighter Bonus Feat.

If you take the Sneak Attack Fighter ACF, you give up your bonus feats.