Author Topic: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)  (Read 3961 times)

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Janthkin

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My character is finishing out level 6 (Cleric 4/Monk 2), and is (by far) the least effective member of the party.  Any suggestions for near-term improvement?  Character concept is directed towards Sacred Fist.

Human Cleric 4/Monk 2
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 18
Cha: 12
HP: 49, AC: 15 (19 w/Mage armor, which is usually up)

Feats: Combat Casting, Knowledge Devotion, Touch of Healing, Improved Natural Attack, (Imp. Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes)
Domains: Magic, Spell
Equipment: Pearl of Power (level 1), Cloak of Resistance +1, Wand of CLW, Wand of Enlarge Person, Rod of Metamagic (Lesser Extend), ~2k gold.


Rest of the party:
Half-Orc Barbarian/Fighter (Lvl 7; 23 Str, w/a +1 Longaxe - 80+ HP, obscene damage output)
Druid (Lvl 7, Dire Weasel companion & usual menagerie of friends)
Barbarian/Rogue (Lvl 7, dual-wielding bastard swords w/3d6 sneak attack damage)
Ranger/Scout/Initiate of the Bow (Lvl 7, with the Ranger alternate class feature of no companion & things he shoots count as Flanked; 3 shots/round with a +d6 flaming greatbow means d10+d8+d6 damage/shot)

Here're my problems:
--Trying to get buffs cast, in encounters that are moving too fast for me to spend multiple rounds self-buffing. 
--I am the "healer," such as there is one.  Partially obviated, as I made all the non-casters buy Healing Belts, and potion use is common.  I still have a top-level spell slot locked up by a Conjuration(Healing) spell to fuel Healing Touch (so I'll only have 1 usable level 3 non-domain spell/day), and at least one Close Wounds is pretty mandatory.
--The DM is fairly stingy with the loots (expected wealth @ level 6: 13k; actual wealth: ~7.5k).
--The DM gives bonus XP for killing blows, meaning I fall further behind every session (about 500-700 XP).  (He also offered bonus XP for healing spells cast in combat, but at a much lower progression than kill bonus, and I had to choose at character creation time which version of bonus I wanted.)

Suggestions?  I'm about to hit level 7, meaning Sacred Fist 1 (and access to level 3 Cleric spells).  My level 9 feat, assuming I live that long, will be Superior Unarmed Strike (bumping me to 2d8 damage Unarmed), but it'd be nice to be a little more effective before then.

What items should I be hunting, given that I will likely only see about 4k gold/level for the next couple levels?  Spell suggestions?  (The Rod of Metamagic Extend was purchased initially to boost Mage Armor Duration to 8 hours/casting, so that I could afford to keep it active all the adventuring day; the third charge/day will probably go to Crown of Might, for 10 hours of +2 strength.)

It doesn't help that encounter balance is suffering - the monsters have to be a threat to the more powerful characters, meaning they hit my Monk like a ton of bricks, meaning I either can't afford to stand toe-to-toe with them (bad, for a character who is banned from using weapons), or I have to waste actions self-healing, which is a losing proposition.

Help?

Havok4

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2010, 06:23:03 PM »
Get yourself a wand of polymorph. Your magic domain will let you use it. This will likely solve your melee issues. Unfortunately this appears to be significantly above your resources at the moment. A wand of alter self would also be good as it would allow you to boost up your natural armor and to gains several natural attacks with can be combined with your unarmed strike. Good forms include the Troglodyte, turning into that would give you a total of 4 attacks per round and it will last for about 30 minutes per casting.

Solo

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2010, 06:27:40 PM »
Lesser Vigor is your friend.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2010, 06:32:02 PM »
Ranger/Scout/Initiate of the Bow (Lvl 7, with the Ranger alternate class feature of no companion & things he shoots count as Flanked; 3 shots/round with a +d6 flaming greatbow means d10+d8+d6 damage/shot)
Is the 1d8 from Order of the Bow? Isn't that a standard action to use, which basically makes it craptastically useless? Did the DM house rule it, or is this guy just using it wrong? (Or am I mistaken? :P )

Quote
--The DM gives bonus XP for killing blows, meaning I fall further behind every session (about 500-700 XP).  (He also offered bonus XP for healing spells cast in combat, but at a much lower progression than kill bonus, and I had to choose at character creation time which version of bonus I wanted.)
Is he also giving more XP to lower level characters? That's in the rules... unlike his BS...
Quote
Suggestions?  I'm about to hit level 7, meaning Sacred Fist 1 (and access to level 3 Cleric spells).  My level 9 feat, assuming I live that long, will be Superior Unarmed Strike (bumping me to 2d8 damage Unarmed), but it'd be nice to be a little more effective before then.
I assume he's giving you full casting progression, per the text, and not the table? (That's RAW how it works. Text trumps table.)

Quote
What items should I be hunting, given that I will likely only see about 4k gold/level for the next couple levels?  Spell suggestions?  (The Rod of Metamagic Extend was purchased initially to boost Mage Armor Duration to 8 hours/casting, so that I could afford to keep it active all the adventuring day; the third charge/day will probably go to Crown of Might, for 10 hours of +2 strength.)

It doesn't help that encounter balance is suffering - the monsters have to be a threat to the more powerful characters, meaning they hit my Monk like a ton of bricks, meaning I either can't afford to stand toe-to-toe with them (bad, for a character who is banned from using weapons), or I have to waste actions self-healing, which is a losing proposition.
Your power should begin to take off fairly soon. A wand of Mirror Image would probably be worth using at the beginning of tough combats. It would be expensive, though. Alter Self could also add quite a bit, as you can get big natural armor boosts and natural weapons that you can use as secondaries after your flurry of blows.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2010, 06:39:12 PM »
Questions about about people actually following the rules based on what you were saying. Also the DM has set the rules to favor glass cannons over all else. You have been setup by your party and DM to be a walking wand of healing from the looks of it.

If you are falling behind the rest of the group see if you can work out a deal with your fellow players. Ask them to deal subdual damage to knock the foe out so you can coup de gras it to get caught up on xp. You should in turn return the favor when you are ripping faces off in a few levels.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Janthkin

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2010, 06:45:26 PM »
Hmmm, Alter Self, you all say?  Is there a guide on (ab)using that somewhere?  (If I Alter Self into a size Large creature, do I get size Large unarmed strikes?)

Yes, I'll have full spell casting progression (made sure of that pre-chargen).  No, lower-level characters aren't getting more XPs.  (Actually, the bonus XPs make the problem worse, as we're leveling faster, meaning the slow treasure distribution is slowed down further, relative to CL.)

(Upon reading, yes, it looks like the Order of the Bow Initiate is being played all wrong.)

« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 06:51:27 PM by Janthkin »

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2010, 06:50:44 PM »
alter self guide

I'll try and find what page in the DMG states lower level characters get more XP so you can show your DM.

Worst case scenario try a new character that can drop everything with one hit. See the Uber chargers if you go that route.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Janthkin

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 06:52:07 PM »
alter self guide

I'll try and find what page in the DMG states lower level characters get more XP so you can show your DM.

Worst case scenario try a new character that can drop everything with one hit. See the Uber chargers if you go that route.
Thanks!  More reading material to prevent me from *sigh* working.

Ikeren

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 12:57:56 AM »
Quote
--The DM gives bonus XP for killing blows, meaning I fall further behind every session (about 500-700 XP).  (He also offered bonus XP for healing spells cast in combat, but at a much lower progression than kill bonus, and I had to choose at character creation time which version of bonus I wanted.)

Get your party to feed you (like other people have suggested). Start ganking prisoners in the middle of the night. Get the party to see if they're willing to "slow" the game at and use merciful weapons to never gain the bonus exp.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 01:07:52 AM »
another suggestion for buffing: a) traditional DMM persistent spell, probably not the best for you due to lowered caster level but buff once a day and well you get to be a rock star when they aren't dispelling you.. b) DMM quicken spell, less feat and turn intensive also lets you get into the fray faster than current situation and can be very diverse in usage. (quickened heal followed by a regular one will put someone from near death to full health.)
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Brainpiercing

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 08:53:55 AM »
If you're good aligned:  Prepare Luminous Armour (BoED), and use that instead of Mage Armour, it will give you +5, and effectively +9 against melee attacks. You need a way to overcome the ability damage, so... dip Binder 1 to bind Naberius to heal the damage in 1-2 rounds. Also, you can SPAM any other Sanctified spells that seem useful (for instance, Celestial aspect to get a fly speed of 100ft(good) for a few minutes, or other benefits).

Granted, this will delay your combat prowess yet a bit more... Hmm, it's a hard call. Maybe delay this until after you can cast Divine Power. (Sacred Fist 3)
You can then make yourself VERY hard to hit, because you can even cast Greater Luminous Armour for +8/+12(melee) to AC.

On the offense: You got yourself the raw deal with your build. The SF is a nice class, but suffers when you don't play out to the Cleric's strengths, rather than the monk's strengths, which are miniscule. I can only reiterate what others have said:
Don't be the healbot, ask the other players to allow you a few killing blows, by either standing back or by subduing, etc. If they don't want to do that, ditch the character, and bring in a DMM cleric of doom, kill them all, and make them your undead puppets :). Right now there is not much else you can do.

As for spell choices:

With 3rd level spells there could be:
Darkfire (SpC): Make touch attacks or ranged touch attacks for 1/2 CL d6 fire damage, and you can make iteratives, even at range; Possibly you could even flurry with it. The point is really only to boost your chance of hitting. Quite possibly you could even power-attack with the flames, IMHO.

Ice Axe: Make touch attacks for 2d12+1/2 CL cold damage, and iteratives, and power-attack, if you have it.

Girallon's Blessing(SpC, 10 min/lvl): Gain four claw attacks, which you can use as secondary naturals after a flurry of blows, and then rend, too.



Janthkin

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 01:19:47 PM »
another suggestion for buffing: a) traditional DMM persistent spell, probably not the best for you due to lowered caster level but buff once a day and well you get to be a rock star when they aren't dispelling you.. b) DMM quicken spell, less feat and turn intensive also lets you get into the fray faster than current situation and can be very diverse in usage. (quickened heal followed by a regular one will put someone from near death to full health.)
I was pondering DMM while building up the character concept, and regretfully wrote it off - too many feats required, and I couldn't see any way to fit them all in (plus get enough turning attempts to power it), while building a Sacred Fist.

Quote from: Brainpiercing
If you're good aligned:
Unfortunately, it's a Lawful-neutral character.  (The Lawful part rather inhibits the "murder prisoners in the middle of the night" approach; also, we never seem to *take* prisoners....)

Darkfire is interesting, though it'd be better (from my perspective) if it stacked with punching things in the face.  Unfortunately, the way I read Ice Axe, I think it'd conflict with the SF "no weapons for you!" rule.  But extra arms is always fun.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 01:24:12 PM by Janthkin »

Nachofan99

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 01:24:25 PM »
Sacred Fist. Done.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 01:43:12 PM »
Sacred Fist. Done.
Reading Comprehension. Done.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 01:57:21 PM »
Darkfire is interesting, though it'd be better (from my perspective) if it stacked with punching things in the face.
It should, actually. You can combine touch attack spells with unarmed strikes. This was clarified way back in 3.0 in Sword and Fist or something, and should be in a FAQ or something as well.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Janthkin

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 02:45:13 PM »
Darkfire is interesting, though it'd be better (from my perspective) if it stacked with punching things in the face.
It should, actually. You can combine touch attack spells with unarmed strikes. This was clarified way back in 3.0 in Sword and Fist or something, and should be in a FAQ or something as well.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere!  I'll go searching for that FAQ answer (though if anyone should come across it, please feel free to post).

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2010, 03:46:36 PM »

Quote from: Brainpiercing
If you're good aligned:
Unfortunately, it's a Lawful-neutral character.  (The Lawful part rather inhibits the "murder prisoners in the middle of the night" approach; also, we never seem to *take* prisoners....)

Be Judge Dredd.

that said, there's a feat in player's guide to kalamar called "positive energy channeling".  You get one bonus off a nice list fueled by your turning.  Like being able to put somebody to sleep as a no-save touch attack (to be CDGed later), or give a bunch of negative levels or something.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 04:12:25 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Janthkin

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2010, 04:16:25 PM »
Darkfire is interesting, though it'd be better (from my perspective) if it stacked with punching things in the face.
It should, actually. You can combine touch attack spells with unarmed strikes. This was clarified way back in 3.0 in Sword and Fist or something, and should be in a FAQ or something as well.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere!  I'll go searching for that FAQ answer (though if anyone should come across it, please feel free to post).
Complete Arcane covers it:
Quote from: Complete Arcane, pg. 73
Improved Unarmed Strike: You can add the damage of your unarmed strike to the damage of a touch spell by delivering the spell as a regular melee attack instead of a melee touch attack. The defender gets the full benefit of armor and shield, but if the attack hits, the unarmed strike deals normal damage over and above any damage the spell does as it is discharged. If the unarmed strike misses, then the spell is not discharged.
If the unarmed strike scores a critical hit, damage from the spell is not multiplied.
Cool; that'll help.

Nachofan99

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2010, 04:17:41 PM »
Let me elaborate.

Once you get even one Sacred Fist level you will start to catch up quickly.  

Until then buy a stack of Tower Shields and hide behind them; no joke.

Archao

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Re: Striving for playability - help? (Rescuing my Cleric 4/Monk 2 build)
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2010, 04:49:06 PM »
that said, there's a feat in player's guide to kalamar called "positive energy channeling".  You get one bonus off a nice list fueled by your turning.  Like being able to put somebody to sleep as a no-save touch attack (to be CDGed later), or give a bunch of negative levels or something.
I've been trying to figure out how to use the Oblivion (no-save sleep touch) as a ranged attack, but if playing a Cleric/Monk mix, this would be much more powerful in a melee build.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 04:56:32 PM by Archao »