Emerge from the ring of control, guardian of balance!

[veekie]

Either Kotomine is a liar or Nasu changed his mind and forgot to rewrite that part.

Hardly an unheard of occurance, considering his role.

The existing classes do not adequately represent all mythic heroes though, much less newer media.
Leaders, unarmed warriors and unusual weapon users generally got shoved into odd classes(our Archers are fine examples, at least EMIYA used a bow once or twice), the Trickster archetype is missing entirely(boy,would some of those be hard to deal with). Smiths, Inventors and Strategists probably get shoveled into Caster.
Besides, what's the point of class cards if you don't have a deck to shuffle with.

[Agita]

Well, a smith or inventor might get put into any of the weapon classes if he wielded his own weapons, like EMIYA did/will (are we treating this as common knowledge rather than a spoiler now?).

Anyone have the stat blocks of the servants handy for guidelines on class stats/abilities? I'd look through the wiki for them, but if the recruitment thread Prime linked me to has low flying spoilers, the wiki has cluster bomb strike spoilers.

I dunno what to call Yukari's NP. From the sounds of it, most or all of her spellcards are just applications of her power, so her NP might be "Border Manipulation (D~A++)" or something (but with a cooler name and title). A++ is really just because ranks are so abstract (and danmaku games are so different to actual combat) that I have little idea what to place it at, but Danmaku Boundary Field, her final card in PCB, seems pretty damn brutal. That's not curtains, that's literal walls of bullets. Had I played any of the fighting games, I might have a better frame of reference. Veekie?

Also, Batman should introduce himself to his Master with "What, are you dense? Are you retarded or something? I'm the goddamn Batman."

[Prime32]

Anyone have the stat blocks of the servants handy for guidelines on class stats/abilities? I'd look through the wiki for them, but if the recruitment thread Prime linked me to has low flying spoilers, the wiki has cluster bomb strike spoilers.

I think I got all the major spoilers. I'm giving Berserker's statblock as an example because his identity was never hidden.

[spoiler]Spirit:    Hercules
Master:    Illyasviel von Einzbern
Alignment:    Chaotic Mad
N. Phantasm:    B
Strength:    A+
Agility:    A
Mana:    A
Luck:    B
Endurance:    A       
Class skills:
  Mad Enhancement    B
Personal skills:
  Battle Continuation    A
  Bravery    A+
  Divinity    A
  Eye of the Mind (Fake)    B
Noble Phantasms:
  God Hand    Support    B
  Nine Lives    Anti-Unit    ~ [/spoiler]

Noble Phantasms can be Anti-Unit, Anti-Army, Anti-Fortress or Support. There is one NP which has a different category, but I will not mention its name (hint: it's gold).

These are the basic quantified values of Servants' parameters. Note that even E Rank is already above what an ordinary human can achieve.

Rank	Value	+	++	+++
A	50	100	150	200
B	40	80	120	160
C	30	60	90	120
D	20	40	60	80
E	10	20	30	40

    * For Noble Phantams, + modifiers represent the capacity of a temporary boost of power if certain conditions are met. + means a two-times increase, ++ a three-times increase and +++ a four-times increase.
    * A A++ Rank Noble Phantasm is said to be a mystery on the level of Divine Spirits.
    * A C Rank Noble Phantasm is equivalent in power to a A Rank normal attack.
    * A A Rank Magecraft is already on the level of High-Thaumaturgy. Magecraft of A+ Rank is said to be almost at the level of Magic
    * A EX Rank represents a value that cannot be quantified under the rules shown above.

Class Skills
[spoiler]

Where multiple classes have a skill, they are listed from strongest to weakest. Just because certain classes always have them doesn't mean other classes can't have them too (eg. Fate/Zero's Berserker had low-rank Magic Resistance despite that not being a Berserker class skill).

Independent Action (Archer)
The capacity to take action without receiving a supply of prana from the Master. At the higher ranks it is also possible to remain for extended periods of time in this world without a established contract.
    * A+: Servant can remain in this world indefinitely even without a Master. However, in order to activate his Noble Phantasm, it is necessary to first acquire an extra supply of prana from alternative sources.
    * A: It is possible take action even without a Master. However, to use Noble Phantasms of great prana consumption, back up from the Master is necessary.
    * B: Capable of remaining in this world for two days without a established contract. Also capable to live on for a short period of time after suffering extensive damage on his spiritual core.
    * C: Capable of remaining in this world for one day without a established contract.
    * E-: Materialization is possible for 30 turns.

Item Construction (Caster)
The skill to manufacture magical items.
    * A: Capable of making healing potions that grant limited immortality.

Mad Enhancement (Berserker)
Raises basic parameters in exchange of hindering mental capacities. In some cases, also seals away Personal Skills.
    * B: Boost up all parameters, but takes away most of sanity.
    * C: Boost up all parameters except Luck and Mana, but in exchange one can no longer think and speak properly.

Magic Resistance (Saber, Lancer, Rider)
Protection against magical effects. Differently from the Resistance effect that merely rejects prana, this ability cancels the spells altogether. Important to note that the term "verse" seen bellow refers to a set of three lines. Thus, a chant of two verses is equivalent to a Six-Line incantation.
    * A: Cancel spells of A-Rank or below. In practice, the Servant is untouchable to modern magi.
    * B: Cancel spells with a chant below three verses. Even if targeted by High-Thaumaturgy and Greater Rituals, it is difficult for him to be affected.
    * C: Cancel spells with a chant below two verses. Cannot defend against Magecraft on the level of High-Thaumaturgy and Greater Rituals.
    * D: Cancel Single-Action spells. Magic Resistance of the same degree of an amulet that rejects magical energy.
    * E: Cannot cancel spells, but magic damage is reduced somewhat.

Presence Concealment (Assassin)
The capacity to hide one's presence as a Servant.
    * A+: It is possible to disappear completely and become almost impossible to be detected. However, efficacy will decrease once preparations to attack are taken.
    * D: Suitable for spying.

Riding (Rider, Saber)
The expertise to ride animals and vehicles.
    * A+: Creatures on the level of Phantasmal Beast and Divine Beast can be used as mounts. However, that does not apply to members of the Dragon Kind.
    * A: All creatures but those of Phantasmal Beast and Divine Beast-rank can be used as mounts.
    * B: Most creatures can be rode with above average skill. However, cannot ride those of Demoniac Beast and Holy Beast-rank.

Territory Creation (Caster)
The skill to build a special terrain that increases one's capacities as a magus.
    * A: Creation of a "Temple", which is superior to a "Workshop", becomes possible.
    * B: Creation of a "Workshop" becomes possible.

[/spoiler]

Personal Skills
[spoiler]

Battle Continuation
Capacity to remain fighting even severely wounded.
    * A: Will remain alive as long as does not receive a fatal injury.

Bravery
Capacity to resist mental interference such as pressure, confusion and fascination.
    * A+: Bonus effect of increasing melee damage. (In Heracles's case, it cannot be used due effect of Mad Enhancement)

Charisma
Natural talent to command an army. Increases the ability of allies during group battles. A rare talent.
    * A+: At this point it is no longer popularity, but rather a kind of spell (curse) in itself.
    * A: Can be said to have achieved the greatest level of popularity as a human being.
    * B: Suitable for a king of a country.
    * E: Leadership skills increases, but the morale troops decreases extremely.

Clairvoyance
Superior visual perception. Supplement long-range aiming and increases dynamic vision. Furthermore, at higher ranks it is possible to acquire precognition ("see into the future") and other forms of perception that are beyond normal eyesight (X-ray vision and the sorts).
    * C: Capable of keeping track of fast-moving object within a range of 4kms.

Disengage
The ability to break away from combat.
    * C: Bonus effect of returning battle conditions to what they were at the beginning of the match.

Divinity
Measures the strength of one's divine ancestry. The amount of divine blood inside a demigod.
    * A+: (Gilgamesh original value as a 2/3 demigod)
    * A: (Heracles was originally a 1/2 demigod, but he became a full god after death.)
    * B: (Gilgamesh effective value, which was reduced due his dislike of the gods)
    * C: (Iskander has been said that he is the son of the greatest of the gods, Zeus, while there is no clear evidence.)
    * E-: (Medusa's divinity was reduced after her transformation into the Gorgon)

Eternal Arms Mastership
Prevents degradation of fighting skills when under the effect of mental hindrance.
    * A+: Mastership of combat arts has reached the point of being said to be unrivaled in one's era. By complete merging of mind, body and technique, it is possible to make use of full fighting skills even when under the influence of any sort of mental hindrance.

Expert of Many Specializations
Access to and use of many expert skills.
    * A+: A total of 32 different skills ranging from tactics, academia, espionage, assassination, swindling, rhetoric and others can be used with proficiency of Rank B or above.

Eye for Art
Infatuation with works of art.
    * E-: If he happens to see a Noble Phantasm that possess artistic anecdotes, there is a small chance that he might be able to figure out its true name.

Eye of the Mind (Fake)
A sixth sense for avoiding danger.
    * A: Bonus effect of offering resistance against penalties caused by visual obstructions.

Eye of the Mind (True)
Heightened insight that was refined through experience.
    * B: Capable of calm analysis of battle conditions even when in danger and deduce an appropriate course of action after considering all possibilities to escape from a predicament. So long there is even a 1% chance of a comeback, this ability greatly improves the chances of winning.

Golden Rule
Measures one's fortune to acquire wealth.
    * A: Money problems are completely unknown.

Heart of Harmony
Prevents decrease in the effectiveness of a technique, regardless how many times it is used against the same opponent.
    * B: Attacks cannot be perceived by the enemy.

High-Speed Divine Words
The power to activate thaumaturgy without the use of Magic Circuits. The language of the Age of Gods, back when words played a heavy role in spellcasting. As such, it is power long lost by modern magi.
    * A: High-Thaumaturgy-level Magecraft can be cast at the speed of Single-Action spells.

Instinct
The power to "feel" the most favorable developments for oneself during battle.
    * A: Refined sixth sense is now close to true precognition. Bonus effect of reducing by half the penalties caused by obstructed vision and hearing.

Librarian of Stored Knowledge
Memory processing distributed among many different personalities.
    * C: With a successful Luck check, it is possible for a clear recall of knowledge from memory, even if the information perceived in the past was not consciously acknowledged at the time.

Magecraft
Knowledge about modern Magecraft.
    * C-: Capable of using orthodox Thaumaturgy.

Mental Pollution
Due possessing a distorted mentality, it is highly possible to shut out any mental interference Thaumaturgy. However, at the same time it becomes impossible to come to an understanding with individuals that do not possess an equivalent rank of mental pollution.

Military Tactics
Tactical knowledge used not for one-on-one combat situations, but for battles where many are mobilized. Bonus modifiers are provided during use of one's own Anti-Army Noble Phantasm or when dealing against an enemy Anti-Army Noble Phantasm.

Monstrous Strength
An ability possessed by monsters and beasts, temporary boost of the Strength parameter by one rank for a time limit determined by the ranking of this skill.

Mystic Eyes
Possession of Mystic Eyes that are capable of interfering with the outside world.

Mystic Face
A spell (curse) inherent of one's facial features which is cast as soon as the target look at the user's face.
    * C: Effects are similar to those of a Charm-type Mystic Eyes.

Prana Burst
Increase of performance by impregnating one's weapons and body with magical energy and instantly expelling it. Simply put, recreating the effect of jet burst by expending large amounts of prana.
    * A: A normal weapon that is not on the level of a divine mystery can be destroyed in one blow. Raises defense in several times. (Arturia uses this skill mainly for defense and high-speed movement. As Saber Alter, her magical energy will cover her body in this fashion regardless of her will)

Projectile (Daggers)
Expertise for throwing projectile weapons (in this case daggers).
    * B: Thrown projectile weapons are now comparable to bullets.

Protection from Arrows
Increased defense against ranged attacks by predicting the projectile trajectory through exceptional means such as hearing the sound of air being cut or sensing the killing intent of the enemy.
    * B: (an inborn ability of Cu Chulainn, as long as the shooter is within his line of sight, he can track down ranged weapons with his eyes and defend against them. Does not apply for attacks made from super-long-range or with a great area-of -effect)

Protection from Wind
A charm (spell) originated from the Middle East, used mainly for protection against sandstorms and Jinns.

Protection of the Fairies
A blessing from Elementals, the capacity to increase one's Luck in dangerous situations. Activation limited to only battlefields, where is possible to perform feats of arms.

Rune Magic
Knowledge about this type of Magecraft originated from northern Europe.
    * B: capable of using the 18 primordials runes.

Self-Modification
The aptitude to merge his own flesh with body parts of others, the higher the ranking in this skill the further away one is from being a proper hero.

Vitrification
A serene state of mind. A mental protection that nullifies mental interference.
    * B+: By limiting his fighting spirit as a martial artist, one can conceal his presence. (As he is not a true assassin, Kojirou cannot truly make use of the Assassin's Class Skill Presence Concealment. However, with this ability he is able to simulate its effects to some extent)

[/spoiler]

[Kuroimaken]

Here's my ideas:

Rider: Raoh (Kokuoh-go. Enough said)
Caster: Toki (Toki IS pretty much Jesus. Jesus is defined as a Caster)
Saber: Rei (Dude's attacks are all about chopping people up)
Archer: Mamiya? (Nobody in the show actually uses ranged weapons... Souther is the only one who actually gets anything done at range, by throwing a spear.)
Lancer: Yuda (Particularly during the fight with Rei. He doesn't strike that far, so he's not an archer, but his strikes are based on thrusts, like a spear)


Kenshiro's the one that doesn't fit anywhere, as he incorporates several different classes of tricks, including but not limited to stealth (Assassin), body control/erasing memories (Caster), punching tanks into exploding bits (Berserker), chopping giant rocks in half (Saber)... the list goes on.

[Agita]

Anyone have the stat blocks of the servants handy for guidelines on class stats/abilities? I'd look through the wiki for them, but if the recruitment thread Prime linked me to has low flying spoilers, the wiki has cluster bomb strike spoilers.

I think I got all the major spoilers. I'm giving Berserker's statblock as an example because his identity was never hidden.

No, I was talking about compiling non-spoilery statblocks so as to have some baselines for the attributes of each class (for example, I'm looking at Archer 5's Strength D, Endurance C, Agility C, Magical Energy B, Luck E to loosely base Yukari's abilities on that). Obviously, different Heroic Spirits will have different abilities, but Assassin and Archer seem to have lower attributes overall, for instance (even Archer 4's attributes aren't that hot, IIRC; his main shtick is his borked NP).
And I'm still not quite clear on what the numbers under rank value mean. Should we assume that to be like D&D stats (where 10 is average human, 18 is superhuman and 30+ is godly)? Doesn't seem like it, as it's stated that even E is beyond normal humans.

The spoiler-free wiki page is helpful, though I'd already read through most of it...
Also, doesn't Archer also get a weak magic resistance (Archerkins has D, Gil has E, IIRC)?

[Prime32]

And I'm still not quite clear on what the numbers under rank value mean. Should we assume that to be like D&D stats (where 10 is average human, 18 is superhuman and 30+ is godly)? Doesn't seem like it, as it's stated that even E is beyond normal humans.

If we assume that the normal human maximum has a value of 5 then

E (10) - 2x
D (20) - 4x
C (30) - 6x
B (40) - 8x
A (50) - 10x

An ability score boost of +5 is equivalent to a doubling, and the normal max is 18, so that means
E - 23
D - 28
C - 31
B - 33
A - 36

Or we could round it off for modifiers, and tone down an E-rank to being equivalent to an ability score of 20. A more even progression would be:
E: +5 (20)
D: +7 (24)
C: +9 (28)
B: +11 (32)
A: +13 (36)
As a bonus this means that Mad Enhancement (which increases stats by one rank) matches up in strength with barbarian rage, its D&D equivalent.

For magic weapons and armour
E: +1
D: +2
C: +3
B: +4
A: +5
EX: +6 or higher
(a bane/holy/etc. weapon adds a "+", so a +5 holy undead bane weapon is A++)

[Agita]

Okay, that works for me. Looking back, Gil's stats actually are pretty high (as broken as the rest of him, one might say). His NP is ranked EX. Yukari's... might also be, since manipulating boundaries is so vague a power that it basically lets her do whatever the hell she wants. But then, a NP is one particular thing the hero was famous for, so making the manipulation just a power and Boundary of Life and Death (her most infamous spell card, I think) the NP (A or A+, Anti-Army) might work better. Alternatively, one of her survival cards might be a Reality Marble like UBW.

Archer
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Identity: Yukari Yakumo
Strength D
Mana A
Endurance C
Agility E
Luck B

Noble Phantasms
Boundary of Life and Death (A+)

Skills
Magecraft: B
Magic Resistance: E
Independent Action: A

High Magical Energy and low Agility is uncommon for the Archers we know, but Yukari's a slacker and a powerful onmyoudou practicer. Powerful enough, in fact, that her shikigami Ran has her own shikigami, so Magecraft looked like a good addition.

[Kuroimaken]

...I seriously need to get my FSN straight.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I wonder what other alternative Classes are possible. I mean, we've heard variations are possible right? Otherwise Kotomine wouldn't bother tracking what classes were summoned.

Either Kotomine is a liar or Nasu changed his mind and forgot to rewrite that part.

The fanwank I heard that most agreed with it is that the Einzberns screw with the rules each time to try to give themselves an unfair advantage, but didn't have time between wars four and five since there was only a ten year gap.

[Prime32]

I wonder what other alternative Classes are possible. I mean, we've heard variations are possible right? Otherwise Kotomine wouldn't bother tracking what classes were summoned.

Either Kotomine is a liar or Nasu changed his mind and forgot to rewrite that part.

The fanwank I heard that most agreed with it is that the Einzberns screw with the rules each time to try to give themselves an unfair advantage, but didn't have time between wars four and five since there was only a ten year gap.

Except that they didn't screw with the rules in War 4. They did hire an outsider to be their Master and made it look like he wasn't, but that's nothing to do with the rules.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

they got rid of the avenger class and substituted berserker, didn't they?

[Prime32]

they got rid of the avenger class and substituted berserker, didn't they?

No, Avenger was a once-off eighth class that only existed in the third war.

[veekie]

I personally I figure they had more classes(I suspect no more than a dozen though, which makes drawing the same 7 classes for two wars not impossible), and the rule they broke in the 3rd was simply summoning an eighth Servant, when the system only had the energy to bring seven full Servants into play.

Caster did much the same with Assassin, and like the Einzberns' Avenger, it sorta came out half assed.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

they got rid of the avenger class and substituted berserker, didn't they?

No, Avenger was a once-off eighth class that only existed in the third war.

They subbed him in for berserker in that war.  They wanted to make a !hax class, then found out that monks weren't broken after all.

Fourth war had berserker, presumably since not only did avenger suck, but it also screwed up the grail.  If it had just been a matter of avenger sucking, the Einzberns would have just left it in and summoned Saber as planned.

[Prime32]

This is vaguely relevant

[Kuroimaken]

What the f...

[veekie]

Massively Multiplayer Crossover?

[Prime32]

Massively Multiplayer Crossover?

That describes regular SRW.* The GitP guys blame Haruhi.

* The video was modified clips of Original Generations, but even that series has Xenosaga characters in it now.

[veekie]

I just found Illya-bot summoning Berserker-bot and hopping onto the shoulder remarkably cute.

[Prime32]

I just found Illya-bot summoning Berserker-bot and hopping onto the shoulder remarkably cute.

You should enjoy the opening of Fate/Tiger Colosseum Upper then.

...just don't look at the op of the original Fate/Tiger Colosseum. It has MASSIVE Heaven's Feel spoilers. Upper's op has stuff from Hollow Ataraxia and Zero, but they aren't exactly spoilers.

See also special attacks.