Author Topic: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)  (Read 4815 times)

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Endarire

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Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2010, 07:28:00 PM »
Metamagics for Me:

When you take a metamagic feat, you can use it spontaneously for no slot increase once per day.  Each time you take the feat thereafter, you get 2 more free uses.  You can still spend higher level slots as normal.
then we don't even need DMM anymore. the metamagic feat it's self is far more powerful.

a level 1 human cleric with the planning domain can  now persist 3 spells at absolutely no cost.

And that's the point.  No icky workarounds.  No spending 4 feats to use 1.  Each feat is useful, powerful, and desirable.  I also redid many other feats.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Endarire

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Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2010, 07:32:36 PM »
@Anklebite: And that's the point.  No icky workarounds.  No spending 4 feats to use 1.  Each feat is useful, powerful, and desirable.  I also redid many other feats.

You also say "absolutely no cost" as if 2 feats and 1 domain were worthless.  They're resources.

@Kell: May I get an exact build for this?

@Saxony: I mentioned the system was crude in the first post.  This is by no means definitive, but a rough estimate to correlate anecdotal evidence with numerical analysis.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

KellKheraptis

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Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2010, 07:36:13 PM »
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wotmaniac

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Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2010, 08:38:51 PM »
By the reasoning of the OP, then nobody has any excuse to not exclusively play single-classed full casters -- but the game is so much more than that.
As food for thought, try to look at this from a systematic perspective:
Let's compare a theurgic caster to the CR and LA systems (I know that they are imperfect systems, but it's what I've got to work with) --
- a 10th-level theurgic caster has the casting of 2 7th-level casters
- Two CR 7 creatures is a CR 9 encounter
This would seem to indicate that a 10th-level theurgic caster would only be a CR 9; but one also needs to consider that said caster also has 10 full HD (and, thus, all that comes with that -- HP, saves, BAB, skills, etc.).  Sure, you may be limited by action economy -- but with prep time and/or proper contingency planning, this is a minor obstacle.

The whole "X+X = X+2" is also demonstrated in gestalt characters -- (by my observation) gestalt characters are generally considered to be about a +2 LA -- this would mean that a 7th level gestalt would be an ECL 9.  Surely the theurgic caster's extra 3 HD can account for something, right?

Or maybe we create a new race; and let's say that race is a 3HD creature with a +0 LA.  And let's say that race's only ability is that for every HD it has (racial or class-level) it also gains spell casting as if it had also gained a level in class "X" (and just to avoid silly shenanigans, let's say that whatever "X" is, then he cannot also actually take levels in that actual class ; and let's also say that he does not advance this ability when he takes levels in a MT-esque PrC).  
Would such a race make for an attractive character?  Would he be preferred to being a single-classes caster with a standard PHB race?
Or, lets put that ability on a 1 HD race -- surely such an ability would be worth at least a +3 LA.  Again, would such a race make for an attractive character?  Would he be preferred to being a single-classes caster with a standard PHB race?

Again, just some food for thought.

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Anklebite

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Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2010, 09:40:12 PM »
Metamagics for Me:

When you take a metamagic feat, you can use it spontaneously for no slot increase once per day.  Each time you take the feat thereafter, you get 2 more free uses.  You can still spend higher level slots as normal.
then we don't even need DMM anymore. the metamagic feat it's self is far more powerful.

a level 1 human cleric with the planning domain can  now persist 3 spells at absolutely no cost.

And that's the point.  No icky workarounds.  No spending 4 feats to use 1.  Each feat is useful, powerful, and desirable.  I also redid many other feats.

persist clerics are broken enough even with having to waste two domains, two feats and two flaws(extra turning) for two persisted spells per day(15+cha turn attempts)!

that same character, with your changes, now has 7(!!!) persisted spells at level one by spam grabbing persist spell. hell, he could instead have 3 persisted spells and 3 quickened spells per day!  he even still has all his 3+cha turning attempts, and an open domain choice!

the workaround was such for a reason: anything less is just plain silly.
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Saxony

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Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2010, 11:09:32 PM »
@Saxony: I mentioned the system was crude in the first post.  This is by no means definitive, but a rough estimate to correlate anecdotal evidence with numerical analysis.

Fair enough.
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Bauglir

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Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2010, 02:09:37 PM »
Oh yeah, and re: Theurges. They're actually not a bad choice once you're past, oh, let's say level 9 or 11. At that point, you've got sufficiently powerful spells that you'll be able to keep up with CR-appropriate enemies with little trouble, and casting from another list is, IMHO more powerful than any non-casting class feature. You take a heavy opportunity cost (losing the spells you'd get for continuing single-classed), but if you're not in a high-optimization game you're not likely to need to exploit that opportunity anyway.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Endarire

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Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2010, 06:54:57 PM »
@Anklebite: Even with my house rules, people want other feats as well.  As a Wizard, I considered loading up on Persist, yet I found other abilities more enticing.

My modified metamagic rules are stronger, but characters become more predictable to DM.  A typical Cleric1 only has 3 spell slots per day including domain.  It also lets me ease into higher levels, instead of a player suddenly saying, "Hey DM, I can now auto-Quicken all my spells because of this ability combo!"

I also tend to run higher-powered games where being a full caster, gish, or a caster dip is expected.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"