Author Topic: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)  (Read 4816 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Metamagic Math
Or Inspirations on How to Correct the System

Intro
Metamagic was meant to be a way for casters to do tricks with their spells by spending feats and paying higher level slots.  If that honestly sounds appealing to you, read on.  Let me show how the system falls apart.

Most people here know that metamagic is not worth using at full price.  (Rare exceptions exist.)  Some people think that Persistent Spell is broken and ignore the +6 level adjustment and the Divine Metamagic (or Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect) that lets people use their feats.  WotC seemed to realize that casters were so powerful they had to lose feats compared to everyone and disguised this in the form of 'powerful' metamagic feats.

Really now, you want to metamagic your best spells.  If you can't even come close, metamagic is a waste.  If I'm a level 1 character, letting me use Persistent shield is usually worth it.  If I'm a level 13 Wizard, I'm not spending 2 feats on Persistent Spell and a level 7 slot to let my shield last all day when I can be destroying the world with plane shift, reverse gravity, and planar binding.  No, I'll make a simulacrum of an Incantatrix and another of a Cleric/Dweomerkeeper and have them buff me silly.

The Math
It's commonly accepted that casters scale in power exponentially while noncasters are stuck with linear growth.

A crude estimate of a caster's power is this:

For each spell slot (including slots from specialization, high ability scores, etc.), square its level.  Add up all the values of your spell slots.  That's your spell score.

For our purposes, level 0 spells are either worth 0 (if you want to be harsh) or 1/4 (if you care about these spells).  In this example, I count L0 spells as 0.


Here's an example.  Let's assume I'm a plain ol' Conjurer7 with 21 INT.  Some would call it on the high side, but I consider it reasonable.

From 21 INT, I have this score:
2 * (1 squared) = 2 +
1 * (2 squared) = 4 +
1 * (3 squared) = 9 +
1 * (4 squared) = 16
31

Since I have no level 5 spell slots, I don't add those bonus spell slots to the score.  Simple, eh?

From my being a handsome Conjurer7, or more realistically, a Conjurer5/Full Casting PrC2
5 * (1 squared) = 5 +
4 * (2 squared) = 16 +
3 * (3 squared) = 27 +
2 * (4 squared) = 32
80

I add the scores from my INT and level to get 101.

The Meaning
When I cast a standard level 4 spell, it has a power of 16.  That's pretty good considering Evard's black tentacles can end the fight and amuse your friends by smacking enemies like lethal wet noodles.

Wait a sec.  What about metamagic?  Metamagic feats, like Fighters, scale linearly most the time.  You could benefit from a well-placed low-level Quickened or Extended Spell, but needing to call every shot- I mean, prepare every metamagicked spell- greatly reduces its value and its DC.  Spontaneous casters get a bad rap for needing to spend longer to cast metamagicked spells and casting off Charisma.  Yeah, you're pretty.  Yeah, you're behind.

Let's Maximize a magic missile, just for kicks.  I don't recommend you do this at home, folks.  1 squared + 3 *1.5 = 5.5.  That's slightly higher in score to a level 2 spell, but a well-placed level 2 spell will often top that.  Sure, you do at least 20 guaranteed damage at this level, but you also spent a feat!

Let's then Empower a scorching ray.  2 squared + 2 *1.5 = 7.  It's more powerful than the average level 2 spell, but about half way in score between a level 2 and level 3 spell.  You used a level 4 slot.  See how this is a slippery downhill slope?

The Ideal
What if you CAN get metamagic for 'free?'  Use a metamagic rod or a class ability to freely and maybe spontaneously apply a desired metamagic feat you want to cast, and suddenly metamagic pulls out ahead.

Let's say your DM was nice and gave you a Lesser Rod of Chaining at level 7.  (Complete Arcane 146 has the stats, folks.)  You can only apply this to level 3 or lower spells, but if you're thinking what I'm thinking...

Our Chained scorching ray makes 2 rays, each which can affect up to 8 targets in 30 feet of the main target.  From a pure math perspective, this has a score of 2 squared + 3 * 1.5 = 8.5.  Wait, that's the same as when we spent a feat!  Let's give our free metamagic a similar score to a normal spell, but individually square the spell level and bonus while dropping metamagic as * 1.5.

In our revised case, it becomes 2 squared + 3 squared = 13.5, or about a level 3.5 spell.  That's much better.  As a non-blaster, I might use that in a third level slot instead of stinking cloud or haste!  Now the problem is finding a DM who hands out these rods when the spells are, y'know, current.

Theurge
To Play a Single-Class Caster
Mystic Theurges and their ilk were the object of scorn around the time 3.5 was about to be released.  "Being able to cast from 2 lists seems BORKEN!"  Now, people in the know don't play them for power.

Why?

For all the effort- the patiently slogging around with lower-level spells than someone as a full caster, you're still outdone sooner by a single-class caster who took Leadership.

Let's say you were a plain ol' Conjurer who traded his familiar for Abrupt Jaunt.  You have 10 Charisma.  At level 6, you take Leadership.  (In Pathfinder, Leadership comes at level 7 and requires 12 CHA for this trick.  Same deal.)  You now can get a level 4 Cleric (5 in Pathfinder) who potentially casts a spell every round while you cast a spell every round.  Were you a standard Theurge, you'd need Quicken spell or some other means of matching the spell output rate of a character and his cohort.  Oh yeah, and a Wizard7 can get celerity for extra spell output.

The Assumption
Whoever priced Mystic Theurge thinking it was balanced didn't understand this math.  Having an inferiority complex for up to 6 levels while you get your shenanigans settled to cast low-powered spells from 2 lists is asking FAR too much.  More insultingly (or awesomely), the cohort of a Commoner with Leadership can make a better secondary caster than you.

It's like metamagic.  If you must pay full price to use it (and 1.5 spell levels is asking a LOT), it's almost never worth it.  You might find some sweet spot around level 14 where things aren't so bad, but at that level, a single-classed caster (even a vanilla generalist Wizard, or plain Sorcerer- perish the thought!) is effectively a demigod.

In short, it's an arms race.  If you get to level 4 spells at the soonest opportunity- and the game expects this- and you're against a fellow who has the backing of 2 spell lists but is whimpering along with spells from 2 lists that are 2 levels lower- you should win, all else equal.  You should win even if you give the poor fellow a head start, not that this is normally wise.

To add insult to injury, if you DO manage to complete Mystic Theurge, where do you go?  A Druid/Wizard has more options like Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild), but the main thing you get from this build is more spell levels from both lists and a bit of Wild Shape.

The Fanboy
Let's say you had your heart absolutely set on being a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge.

What do you need to stay remotely current?
-Practiced Spellcaster, twice.
-A high INT and WIS.  (If you're going for 2 classes that rely on CHA, you're in a different sort of trouble.)
-A party comfortable with someone effectively a "not a Cleric" and a "not a Wizard."
-DM leniency.  Even a pure Bard can cast higher level spells than you!

Even if you only use Cleric spells for buffs so you can sack the DCs, you need enough spell slots to justify your hybrid existence.  You can contribute through well-placed low-level spells, but your party's single classers may be taunting you with, "Donchya wish your caster were fun like me?"

Let's say you attain level 7.  You're a Wizard3/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge1.  Yay!  You're trudging along in level 2 spells while the Conjurer5/Incantatrix2 with the uber Spellcraft check Persists other casters' buffs (and gets all the ladies, natch).  He probably has more HP than you because he boosted his CON instead of WIS.

For all this effort, how does your level 7 score compare to the mighty 101 of a 21 INT Conjurer7?  Let's say you have 18 INT and 16 WIS and you're a specialized Wizard.

From 18 INT, I have this score:
1 * (1 squared) = 1 +
1 * (2 squared) = 4
5

From my specialty Wizard4 levels...
4 * (1 squared) = 4 +
3 * (2 squared) = 12
16

From 16 WIS, I have this score:
1 * (1 squared) = 1 +
1 * (2 squared) = 4
5

From my 4 Cleric levels, including domain spells...
4 * (1 squared) = 4 +
3 * (2 squared) = 12
16

Each class has a score of 21, or about 1/5 that of our sample Conjurer7.  Your total score is 42, or about 40% that of our benchmark Conjurer7.  Sorry man, Douglas Adams pitied you decades in advance.

The Fast Track
"But wait!" you say.  "I know a certain trick to enter Mystic Theurge early and lose only 1 caster level!"

Fine.  You'll pull ahead in combined class spell scores compared to a single-class, but you're still behind in the arms race.  When your party mates get the awesome 9th level spells (and killing things with time stop), you're still cutting your teeth on level 7s or 8s.  Like the saying goes, "Friends don't let friends go both ways."

If you can get in with only 1 lost caster level, you're far better off.  In terms of casting, you have the spell progression of a Sorcerer, but with a Cleric or Wizard base.  You lose 1 caster level to gain another discipline of casting that probably uses another stat.  Whether you want it is another thing.  (For all Sharn lovers, you can make excellent Mystic Theurges.  Smile!)  Also see The Exception section below.

Be warned.  Your multi-niching doesn't give you the extended stamina of a melee/caster gish.  You get no maneuvers, no d10s/d12s, no levels with full BAB (short of spells like Tenser's transformation), no one-shotting foes with ubercharges (unless you're also a Hood or the like, which boggles me).  You don't usually get interesting class features.  You aren't sneaky or sneak attacky like a Rogue gish.  You're a big pile of small-effect spells.  At least you save your group money on items that cast obscure spells once or twice a day.

The Exception
There is a rare time when being a Mystic Theurge may be less painful, even (gulp!) semi-optimal.  It involves what most would consider cheese, but cheese wipes away the bad taste Mystic Theurge leaves in my mouth.  You find an arcane and divine 'superclass'- Beholder Mage or Sublime Chord for arcane and Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader for divine.  Put 'em together and what have you got?  Bippity, boppity, boom!

The reason for this is simple:  Superclasses get spells faster than normal.  In 9 or 10 levels, you get 9th level spells.  You only need a level or 2 of each class to qualify  You can also fill another role like ubercharger or Psion before setting yourself up for supertheurgy.

Single Stat Theurges
"Wait, wait!  What about theurges who rely on one stat?"  A Sorcerer/Shugenja relies on CHA for his spells, but...

Single Stat Theurge Problems
-You're probably casting off Charisma, a stat weaker than WIS and INT for casting.  If you have a small number of spells known, having more spells of lower level isn't solving your problem.
-You're probably a character level or 2 behind compared to standard casters.  When a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge first comes online, a Sorcerer/Shugenja who has won Miss Congeniality is 2 levels behind, barring early entry.

-Most "single stat theurges" aren't truly that.  An Archivist relies on WIS for bonus spells and INT for his DCs.  A Favored Soul is similarly split between CHA (spells per day) and WIS (spell DCs).
-If you're a Wizard/Archivist/Theurge, why?  An Archivist can learn every spell in the game!  (Just buddy-buddy with some Geomancers and Alternative Source Spell users.)  A Wizard can get Incantatrix and Sevenfold Veil and other lovely classes.  Why muddle them?
-An Arcane Swordsage/Whatever has rules so vague that it's DM's call over what happens.  Besides, Arcane Swordsage lends itself better to melee gishes.

Druids
Better Mystic Theurges Than You Since 2000!

"Druids!?" you might ask, exacerbatedly.  "But how-?"

Think about it.  Druids get the HP and saves of a Cleric, some crowd control like a Wizard (obscuring mist, entangle), buffs from either (wind wall, freedom of movement, death ward, swift fly, bite of the wereX), and can melee fairly well.  And by fairly well, they can be uber when they're hardly trying.

Sure, the typical Druid will never get planar binding or teleport, but he can go Contemplative at level 11 for the Balance Domain then become a Sacred Exorcist for Divine Metamagic.  His combat summons are at least on par with summon monster before planar binding spells become common.  He can heal out of combat with vigor spells as soon as a Cleric can and is 1 spell level behind on getting heal.  He can cast spells in a small selection of armor without spell failure like a well-tempered Wizard.  He knows every spell on his class list, like a Cleric.  Many spells require a divine focus (not a spellbook or inexpensive spell focus), a cheap object he can carve into his palms.

Unlike a Cleric/Wizard, he never loses a caster level.  Also, unlike a Cleric or Wizard, every book with a creature, item, or class spell is potentially viable.

Perhaps most importantly as a Druid, you never need to multiclass to be awesome.  Multiclassing may even be bad for you.  (I consider Planar Shepherd's awesomeness painful to you as a player if done correctly.  Fewer hospital visits mean fewer lost friends, capiche?)

Just look at the Druid class table.  Notice how you get a class feature nearly every level?  Notice how your table is the widest in the PHB, on par with the Monk's?  (Ignore the Monk's power level for now.)  Compare this to a typical Wizard, Cleric, or Mystic Theurge.  Notice how sparse the class feature columns look?

Your animal companion is just gravy and is a replaceable, trainable, reliable friend, mount, or/and flanking buddy.  Oh yeah, you can still take Leadership.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 04:16:34 AM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2010, 12:42:07 AM »
metamagic is balanced. the same can not be said for the spells you use them on.

the problem is not that metamagic is worthless without alternate payment.  they can be useful, but require careful thought and planning. as feats go, a couple of metamagics really help, even at low levels. said lvl7 conjurer had best be abusing the shit out of sculpt and extend.

as we all know, "free" metamagics are completely borked. no question.


theurgic classes can work out just fine.  yes, being a spell level ahead is a major advantage; however, so is casting from two lists and having more spells(assuming early entry, of course).  the sublime ur-chord theurge is awesome, as we all know.

personally, I do not feel like these things need changing. make metamagic any better, and well shit. even more borked.  make theurgic classes better, and people stop playing anything else.

the druid, though, does not count as a substitute for theurging. yes, it is the gish-in-a-box, and it has a different spell list. but that is the thing; it has a different spell list.  wizard BC tends to be alot better, barring a few exceptions like kelpstrand.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2010, 12:42:46 AM »
Wait, if you only lose one caster level to get into Mystic Theurge, aren't you using 8th level spells when your party members are getting 9th level spells, and that only for one level? Considering that being 1 spell level behind is going to be enough to contribute effectively, given the absurd power of spellcasting, I think that might be a perfectly sensible tradeoff.

Also, I'm not sure I see the point of the Druid bit, aside from laying out what's already common knowledge about Druids. And it's not so much that they're a better Theurge, it's that they're just better. I'm not sure that "Whatever you can do, Druids do it better" needs pointing out, but oh well.

Also, where did you get the 1.5s in doing your math for the metamagic spell levels? The setup seems a little suspect, as well. You're picking pretty terrible spells to metamagic, and showing that using your feats wrong is unoptimized isn't too hard. I mean, it seems like a fairer assessment to say that metamagic is, at best, situationally useful and only broken when cost-reducing abilities are abused.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2010, 12:44:50 AM »
I picked an arbitrary linear scalar (1.5).

Also, I did say if you get in early, you're ahead spell-wise.  You miss out on class features, but being 1 effective Wizard level behind the party may be worth it.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2010, 12:49:45 AM »
I picked an arbitrary linear scalar (1.5).

Also, I did say if you get in early, you're ahead spell-wise.  You miss out on class features, but being 1 effective Wizard level behind the party may be worth it.

the problem is, is that metamagic is more of a spell changer than a spell improver. the best ways of using metamagic tend to completely change the use of the spell. for instance, extended shield/mage armor make these last a much longer time, letting you keep them up all day.

a sculpted grease or glitterdust is just so much damn win in one(or several) place that it makes it worth a hell of a lot more than you pay for.

at level 12, when you pick up quicken spell, you increase your action economy. quickened grease + another spell can greatly improve your encounter rape.

even empower and maximize have their place, albeit in specific clever situations.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2010, 12:52:09 AM »
Quote
When your party mates get the awesome 9th level spells (and killing things with time stop), you're still cutting your teeth on level 7s

That's what I was referring to. Seems like it should be level 8s at the end, I think.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2010, 12:53:47 AM »
The amount you're behind is assumed to be 3 levels as that's the earliest you're expected to go MT.  Early entry tricks and latecomers change the formulas.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 12:57:13 AM »
The amount you're behind is assumed to be 3 levels as that's the earliest you're expected to go MT.  Early entry tricks and latecomers change the formulas.
this is charOp. we calculate with optimization factored in.  :D
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 01:13:12 AM »
And my DM dislikes the notion of me using Heighten Spell to qualify for spellcasting early.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 01:15:21 AM »
The amount you're behind is assumed to be 3 levels as that's the earliest you're expected to go MT.  Early entry tricks and latecomers change the formulas.

Yes, but you put that quote under the Fast Track section, implying that you're that far behind if you DO have early entry.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

wotmaniac

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Emperor's Enforcer
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 01:17:26 AM »
I also think that there are potentially at least 2 confounding factors to consider:
1) optimization level and play style of the group
2) party composition
This can potentially have huge implications.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Unbeliever

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 766
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 02:07:16 AM »
I also think that there are potentially at least 2 confounding factors to consider:
1) optimization level and play style of the group
2) party composition
This can potentially have huge implications.
This is certainly true.  Although I would love to figure out a nice way to make metamagic feats more usable in general, and really, more fun.  I am attracted to some version of the "sudden mm" feats, but I have not come up w/ a good way to balance them -- they need to not be overpowered and still be worth taking.  Although I guess it'd be hard for them to be tougher than DMM ...

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 03:48:31 AM »
Hey now, mystic theurge is a perfectly fine racial prestige class for sharns.  Nothing wrong with that.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 03:50:09 AM »
Hey now, mystic theurge is a perfectly fine racial prestige class for sharns.  Nothing wrong with that.
:lmao

so damn true.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 04:10:14 AM »
Metamagics for Me:

When you take a metamagic feat, you can use it spontaneously for no slot increase once per day.  Each time you take the feat thereafter, you get 2 more free uses.  You can still spend higher level slots as normal.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2010, 04:48:34 AM »
There is something to be said for a druid who just so happens to pick up the Wizard and Cleric lists (and not to mention Warblade maneuvers).  What that might be depends on how greatly you value your skull or how well you came prepared with armor, but there is something to be said :P

EDIT : And remember, since it's Sorcerer based Sor/Wiz list, you get all the nice Sorc only spells, which means your second priority after Natural Spell is Sanctum Spell, to cram Sanctum Arcane Fusions into Arcane Fusions :D  As a <nasty critter you wildshaped into> with <laundry list of buffs> as a free quickened action, in addition to full attacking the BBEG that just raped the BSF.  Call it Proactive GOD-work...why let the beatsticks have all the fun!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 04:50:49 AM by KellKheraptis »
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2010, 05:06:43 AM »
How'zat work, Kell?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2010, 05:30:09 AM »
How'zat work, Kell?

All Sovereign Archetypes give the Sor/Wiz list, with Sorc being specific (yay Dragonborn!).  Wyrm of War also grants either 1/4 levels combat feats or warblade maneuvers.  Shapechange/Polymorph/Draconic Polymorph/etc to snag the cleric list.

EDIT : Oh, and even if the DM won't let the double dip fly with Wyrm of War (only getting maneuvers), Child of Light spells out that it grants the domains listed, the Sor/Wiz list, and the Cleric list, plus Turn Undead.  Combine with Wild Reaper for double sources of TU, add Nightsticks to flavor, and laugh at the initiators, and the AMF whores (which you can do too thanks to Dragon Magic and the Cleric list), because you can sink into the ground even in an AMF, and regardless of Dimension Lock tactics.  <3 druids
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 05:32:18 AM by KellKheraptis »
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Saxony

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
  • My avatar is from the anime "Pani Poni Dash!".
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2010, 11:48:43 AM »
You say that spellcasting becomes exponentially more powerful as levels increase linearly. I don't argue with that. You arbitrarily decided that the exponent for this exponential increase was 2. Why not 3 or 1.5?

To accurately compare a Mystic Theurge's and Vanilla caster's "power level", you're going to have to come up with an actual system of comparing spells of different levels than just "square the spell levels". If you actually test this out for all spells to determine their "relative power", and conclude that the proper exponent is indeed 2, gravy. Hell, I'd even let you just test the spells in the PHB. But just throwing out a "square them" because that's the exponent you're most familiar is not correct.

The relationship between spell power and character level is probably not even a one term polynomial (y=x^a, where a is a real number, y is the spell power and x is the character level). It's probably something like "y=x^a + w^b + v^c", where a, b, and c are real numbers, v,w, and x are scalar multiples of character level and y is the spell power. So just raising the spell level to the appropriate power won't work.

I don't expect you (or anyone) to actually go through all the work of determining the relative power of different spells, especially since the effects of spells are both subjective and campaign and/or DM specific, and doing so would require knowing how to use graphing software.

So all we are going to have to compare Mystic Theurges and Vanilla casters are anecdotal evidence (they suck in comparison in most cases). Bringing in numerical analysis when one hasn't actually done any research to determine what the numbers really are is inappropriate.
If I say something about real world physics, and someone disagrees, assume I am right 90% of the time. This number goes up to 100% if I am late night posting - trust me, my star dust sibs.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Metamagic Math AND Mystic Theurges (Two Mini Handbook Topics)
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 12:04:25 PM »
Metamagics for Me:

When you take a metamagic feat, you can use it spontaneously for no slot increase once per day.  Each time you take the feat thereafter, you get 2 more free uses.  You can still spend higher level slots as normal.
then we don't even need DMM anymore. the metamagic feat it's self is far more powerful.

a level 1 human cleric with the planning domain can  now persist 3 spells at absolutely no cost.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo