Mindsight-counter

[NiteCyper]

Note that if you make a suggestion such as the "God-blooded (of Vecna)" template, this discussion is strictly for RAW-counters. The "Mind Blank" spell doesn't explicitly counter the "Mindsight" feat, the "Mind Blank" spell calls out "devices and spells", not "Telepathy", and the "Slayer" PrC's "Cerebral Blind (Su)" use of the term "powers" refers to psionic powers.

The first level of the "Hellbreaker" PrC's "Telepathic Static (Su)" wais the best counter.

Now, the "Telepathy Block" spell + the "Quintessence" power. Assuming arcane-psionic transparency, it's cost is 9*5*50+7*4*40=3370 gp. As neither individual cost is above 3,000 gp (neither has material components), it's viable (for purchase).^{See first reply below.}

[spoiler]AMF, Dust of Disappearance (Wish Economy), [/spoiler]

[Anklebite]

telepathic block only blocks the communication and conversation ability of telepathy, instead of actually blocking telepathy.

[NiteCyper]

Ironically, it's faster to achieve the "Hellbreaker" PrC's prerequisites via Fighter Feat variant Rogue (Martial Study (Shadow Hand) + Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)) than normal Rogue. The "Assassin's Stance" stance is a Swordsage 3 level stance.

[Anklebite]

Ironically, it's faster to achieve the "Hellbreaker" PrC's prerequisites via Fighter Feat variant Rogue (Martial Study (Shadow Hand) + Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)) than normal Rogue.

the sad part about hellbreaker is that it negates the telepathy of anyone within 20 ft, not any telepathy within 20 ft.

[NiteCyper]

Ironically, it's faster to achieve the "Hellbreaker" PrC's prerequisites via Fighter Feat variant Rogue (Martial Study (Shadow Hand) + Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)) than normal Rogue.

the sad part about hellbreaker is that it negates the telepathy of anyone within 20 ft, not any telepathy within 20 ft.

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

This could be synonymous with interpretation 1: "you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

or

"you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

[Anklebite]

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

[NiteCyper]

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

Alternate emphasis mine.

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures[,] within range."

[Anklebite]

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

Alternate emphasis mine.

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures[,] within range."

there is no comma though. sadly, it seems to negate the telepathy of all creatures within range.

[NiteCyper]

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

Alternate emphasis mine.

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures[,] within range."

there is no comma though. sadly, it seems to negate the telepathy of all creatures within range.

It does not invalidate my interpretation.

Argue this:

interpretation 1: "you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

In fact, the "Mindsight" ability may not even work off of "Telepathy" at all. It simply has it as a prerequisite and as a basis for the range. It is heavily implied otherwise.

[Anklebite]

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

Alternate emphasis mine.

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures[,] within range."

there is no comma though. sadly, it seems to negate the telepathy of all creatures within range.

It does not invalidate my interpretation.

Argue this:

interpretation 1: "you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

but nothing validates your interpretation either.

[NiteCyper]

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

Alternate emphasis mine.

"...you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures[,] within range."

there is no comma though. sadly, it seems to negate the telepathy of all creatures within range.

It does not invalidate my interpretation.

Argue this:

interpretation 1: "you emit
a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating
the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

but nothing validates your interpretation either.

The point is that it is not invalidated. It is validated by ambiguous grammatical interpretation.

[snakeman830]

My god, just let it work already!  We all know Mindsight is overpowered in it's complete lack of counters.  Here's one counter that undoubtedly works.  Wether it works when the Hellbreaker is outside of 20ft of the Mindsight critter is the question.  Let it work all the way, I say.  It's not an unreasonable interpretation given the wording and by no means unbalancing.

[Anklebite]

My god, just let it work already!  We all know Mindsight is overpowered in it's complete lack of counters.  Here's one counter that undoubtedly works.  Wether it works when the Hellbreaker is outside of 20ft of the Mindsight critter is the question.  Let it work all the way, I say.  It's not an unreasonable interpretation given the wording and by no means unbalancing.

I would never deny a player in my game from having it work that way.  I was just pointing out the RAW.

[JaronK]

RAI seems to be that even Mindblank blocks telepathy, because Elder Brains in the same book are mentioned as being unable to use a similar sight to see undead.  That's not RAW though.

JaronK

[NiteCyper]

Undead are mindless. Undead don't have "Mind Blank".

"A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint
beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence
score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy."

[spoiler]
1 Adult invoker - Blend into Shadows
2 Fighter (Hit-and-Run Tactics (DotU)) - Combat Expertise, Improved Feint,
3 ? - Undo Resistance feat
4/5 invoker 1/Fighter 2/Rogue 1/Spellthief 1 or invoker 1/Fighter 1/Rogue 3,
6 Hellbreaker 1 - Darkstalker

Is there an easier way of getting skirmish/sudden strike +2d6 than there is getting SA +2d6?
[/spoiler]

[snakeman830]

RAI seems to be that even Mindblank blocks telepathy, because Elder Brains in the same book are mentioned as being unable to use a similar sight to see undead.  That's not RAW though.

JaronK

It was implied that that part was referring to Mindless undead, which Mindsight can't detect.  Not stated, of course, but it was implied.

And it has been shown in this thread that Hellbreaker stopping it outside of 20ft can easily be RAW.  It all depends on where you put the emphasis.

[Anklebite]

Undead are mindless. Undead don't have "Mind Blank".

"A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint
beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence
score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy."

[spoiler]Unseelie Fey Whisper Gnome Warlock, 2 flaws, Blend into Shadows, Fade into Darkness, Darkstalker
Fighter (HNRT, Targetteer, Thug, and/or Survivalist), Rogue, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint,
3 Undo Resistance

What's the easiest way to get sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike +2d6?
[/spoiler]

ye old assassin's stance.

[NiteCyper]

Undead are mindless. Undead don't have "Mind Blank".

"A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint
beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence
score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy."

[spoiler]Unseelie Fey Whisper Gnome Warlock, 2 flaws, Blend into Shadows, Fade into Darkness, Darkstalker
Fighter (HNRT, Targetteer, Thug, and/or Survivalist), Rogue, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint,
3 Undo Resistance

What's the easiest way to get sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike +2d6?
[/spoiler]

ye old assassin's stance.

It comes in too late.

Sneak attack acquisition options:

• Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic, p.18) < Dragonfire Adept

[spoiler]"DRAGONFIRE STRIKE [DRACONIC]
You can call upon your innate draconic power to augment
certain weapon attacks.
 Prerequisite: Cha 11, dragonblood subtype, and one
of these class features: sneak attack, sudden strike, or
skirmish.
 Benefi  t: When you gain extra damage from a sneak attack,
sudden strike, or skirmish, you can choose for the extra
damage to be fi  re damage. If you apply this effect, increase
the extra damage dealt by 1d6 points. Make this choice for
each attack after it is resolved but before damage is dealt. This
is a supernatural ability.
  Special: If you have the Draconic Heritage feat or if you
are a half-dragon, the extra damage is of the energy type
(acid, cold, electricity, fi  re, or sonic) that corresponds to your
heritage or your draconic parent instead. If your feat or your
parent is not associated with one of these energy types, this
feat has no effect for you."[/spoiler]

• Indigo Strike feat (Magic of Incarnum, p.38) < Rogue 1 and doesn't actually add SA dice

[spoiler]"INDIGO STRIKE [INCARNUM]
You can channel incarnum to enhance your ability to deal
damage with your skirmish attack, sneak attack, or sudden
strike. When you do so, your eyes turn dark blue.
Prerequisites: Con 13 and skirmish, sneak attack, or
sudden strike class feature.
Benefi  t: Once per day, you can invest essentia into this
feat. You gain an insight bonus on damage rolls made when
delivering attacks with the skirmish, sneak attack, or sudden
strike class feature equal to twice the invested essentia.
Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot
be altered and remains invested for 24 hours.
 If you have more than one of the listed class features, the
bonus applies only once on any given attack.
 You gain 1 point of essentia."[/spoiler]

• Rogue's Vest (Magic Item Compendium, p.130) - too expensive

[spoiler]"ROGUE’S VEST
Price (Item Level): 18,000 gp (14th)
Body Slot: Torso
Caster Level: 13th
Aura: Strong; (DC 21) divination
Activation: —
Weight: 1 lb.
This slick-looking black vest is made of supple,
well-worked leather. Its buttons are carved of
dull black glass and seem to absorb light rather
than refl ect it.
While wearing this vest, you gain a +2 com-
petence bonus on Hide and Move Silently
checks, and a +2 competence bonus on
Refl  ex saves. In addition, if you have the
skirmish, sneak attack, or sudden strike
ability, you deal an extra 1d6 points of
damage when making such an attack.
Lore: A halfl  ing arcane trickster
named Lena Wanderingeye created the
fi  rst rogue’s vest. She wore it for many years
before she retired from adventuring and
joined a caravan. She eventually passed
the secret of its creation on to the arcane
spellcasters in the caravan (Knowledge
[arcana or history] DC 20).
 Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item,
cat’s grace, invisibility, true strike.
Cost to Create:  9,000 gp, 720 XP,
18 days."[/spoiler]

• Novice Shadow Hands (ToB, p.150) - maneuver-only and prerequisite thereof
  
• Psychic Rogue - psionics and simultaneous variant
• "Deadly Precision" weapon special ability < Rogue 1, too expensive

[spoiler]"Deadly Precision: A deadly precision weapon deals
an extra 2d6 points of damage when its wielder makes
a successful sneak attack. This ability does not bestow
the ability to make sneak attacks upon a user who does
not already have it.
 Moderate transmutation; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms
and Armor, keen edge; Price +2 bonus."[/spoiler]

• The "Assassin" PrC - too late
• The "Guild Thief" PrC (FRCS, p.45) - too late
• The "Shadow Thief of Amn" PrC (Player’s Guide to Faerûn, p.74) - too late
• The "Ronin" PrC (CW, p.77) - too late and bad prereqs
• The "Nightsong Enforcer" PrC (CAdv, p.60/61) - too late
• The "Nightsong Infiltrator" PrC (CAdv, p.62) - too late
• UA's sneak attack variant Fighter may progress SA as a Rogue (i.e. gain +1d6 every odd level) and I want to use those Fighter feats for other stuff.
• "Kelvezu" form - too expensive
• "Nightstalker's Transformation" spell - too expensive
• "Assassination" magical weapon special ability - unnamed
  
• "Bracers of the Hunter" (Secrets of Xen'drik, p.145) < Rogue 1 and too expensive

[spoiler]"BRACERS OF THE HUNTER
Powerful shamans and clerics of Vulkoor work together
to create these scorpion-shell bracers to honor a clan’s
favored hunters. Although rare even among the drow
tribes, a few pairs of these bracers have made their way
into the hands of explorers, often through deadly combat
with the chosen of Vulkoor.
Description: These black bracers are made from
the shell of a monstrous scorpion ritually sacrificed in
honor of the drow deity, Vulkoor. One side of the bracers
is etched with prayers to Vulkoor, while the other bears
the image of a scorpion poised to strike.
Arquis tellora and the sanguineous tome,
items lost in the wilds of Xen’drik
JEXEN'DRIK UNVEILED 146
Activation: The bracers function automatically
while they are worn.
Effect: The wearer’s skin and garb take on the hues
of the background environment, granting a +5 compe-
tence bonus on Hide checks. In addition, the bracers
increase the wearer’s reflexes, granting a +2 com-
petence bonus on initiative checks.
 The bracers also enhance the wearer’s
precision when making a sneak attack or
sudden strike (see page 130), and such
attacks deal an additional 1d6 points
of damage. This extra damage is
granted only once, even if the
wearer is making both a sneak
attack and a sudden strike. If the
wearer does not have the sudden
strike or sneak attack ability,
the bracers grant no additional
benefi  t in combat.
Aura/Caster Level: Moderate
divination and transmutation. CL 7th.
Construction: Craft Wondrous Item,
cat’s grace, disguise self, infl ict moderate wounds, 4,250
gp, 340 XP, 9 days.
Weight: 2 lb.
Price: 8,500 gp."[/spoiler]

• Fingerblade (Sandstorm, p.96) - unnamed

[spoiler]"Fingerblade: In its most basic defi  nition, a fi  ngerblade
is a double-edged short sword. However, this weapon is
customized to your hand. The hilt is something like a
hand crossbow grip. It fi  ts snugly in the palm of your
hand such that your attack motion with the weapon is
akin to a punch. Held correctly, a fi  ngerblade becomes
an extension of your forefinger, allowing maximized
control. When an attack is properly executed, the hilt
pushes into the palm so that no slippage occurs and" "maximum force is transferred into the thrust. If you are
profi  cient with a fi  ngerblade, you deal an extra 1d6 points
of damage to a foe who is fl  at-footed on the fi  rst round
of combat. Creatures with immunity to extra damage
from critical hits and sneak attacks are not subject to
this extra damage.""[/spoiler]

• The "Spellthief" (Complete Adventurer, p.13+) base class best option

[Tonymitsu]

I'm still confused as to how people think the Hellbreaker ability works.

As was stated:

"You emit a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating the telepathy ability of all creatures within range."

That ability clearly does not affect the Hellbreaker itself.  It affects other creatures, out to a maximum range of 20 feet.
If your target is outside that 20 foot range you don't affect the creature.

Assuming this method for stopping Mindsight works at all... the other creature would find you without any trouble as soon as you enter his 100 foot range.  He wouldn't lose track of you until you got within 20 feet of him and was within range of your ability.

[CantripN]

I'd really see it as negating Telepathy if you're in THEIR range (be it 100' or 1000'), to all targets within 20' of you, and preventing it entirely if you're within 20' of the originator.