Author Topic: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2  (Read 2887 times)

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Ardus

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Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« on: April 03, 2010, 03:32:07 AM »
Good Day All

I have a problem with our DM about choosing my race for our campaign and he set a limit for choosing a race with an LA+2 (Level Adjustment) now here is what I came up, a Bugbear White Dragonspawn Monk (Bugbear LA+1 - Monster Manual I page 29 and White Dragonspawn Template LA+1 - Dragonlance Campaign Settings page 222). He literally and figuratively said that my character was very powerful and modified it (to make it fair for other players, so they won't be over-shadowed by my character) by removing the following:

Natural Armor +7
HD of the base creature includes skills, feats and HP
Death Throes
Removing +2 on any stat bonus

So we played...

After 4 sessions or 1 day before our next session he txt message me saying my character is so powerful and it actually surpassed his limit of of LA+2! His reason = Savage Species Book Level Adjustment on Special Abilities like my breath weapon is already a +1 adjustment and I have too many special abilities.

Now here are the important questions that must be answered by veterans here on Brilliant Gameologist:

1. To my understanding, is my Bugbear White Dragonspawn "Legal" or "by the book" correct that it is a LA+2?

2. I've read the savage species book and to my understanding it is the rule on CREATING a monster and not to compare to a pre-built monsters such as the bugbear and dragonspawn, is this correct?

3. my DM asks why are there weaker Monsters as Characters and some are powerful but they are on the same LA+1 or 2? My defense on the debate that even though it is stronger, their overall strength is on the same CR or LA level, am I correct on my defence on this?

I want these questions answered, ladies and gentle orcs, as a fellow player and DM myself I need your help to back me up on this, I'm new here and my DM wants me to ask of you guys about it since this site is where my DM gets his info, I've been playing 3.0 and 3.5 for a long time and this debate, for me, is actually ridiculous since WE, the DM and I go "by-the-book" rules and we have less house rules, it is very time consuming finding a nice playable monster on ALL f the books and now my DM is saying that I'm cheating of some sort and not doing the "legal" way or by-the-book, it's frustrating cause I play DND 3.5 as a stress reliever and I want to have fun (bashing enemies and saving the day, even though I look damn ugly but cool).

I totally agree on my DM by removing the NA+7 cause in my calculation it is... well... damn high AC and we are using the 32-point system and my class is monk and my armor class is WOW OMG WTH HOLY DAMN! on 1st level, let me give you my final stats block and armor class:

STR - 18
DEX - 18
CON - 18
INT - 10
WIS - 16
CHA - 11 = for the sorcerer lvl of the dragonspawn so I can use mage armor and shield

AC 24 = 10 + NA 7 + DEX 4 + WIS 3 (no buffs yet on AC)
(for a low lvl? DAMN MY ENEMIES NEEDS A 20 TO HIT ME ^_^)

Nanshork

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2010, 04:46:33 AM »
To answer your questions: Yes, a white dragonspawn bugbear is a LA+2 character.

However, White Dragonspawn is considered as one of the best (if not the best) LA+1 template in existence and that it is so powerful that it is pretty much broken.  The LA system isn't built very well and not all LA +1 races are equal, that's just how the system is.
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Ardus

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2010, 04:55:06 AM »
thank you so much! ^_^

I was waiting for someone to reply!

is that a YES to all my questions? So now I can smack my DM's head on his PC, Figuratively speaking of course, I know it is powerful BUT with the modification he made by removing some of my special abilities it is enough for it to be well balanced right?

So can I bitch slap him now? HAHA!

Nanshork

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 05:00:49 AM »
Yes to one and two, no on three but that's just because D&D isn't balanced in general.

As for whether or not it is enough to be well balanced, that all depends on what it's being balanced against, aka what the rest of the party is.  The fact that you don't seem to be playing a caster with that template does help tone it down quite a bit, but I'm sure someone else on the board will chime in with a second opinion before I get on again in the morning.  Don't take my word for everything.   :p
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Ardus

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2010, 05:07:17 AM »
Yeah I know!

Rule books are just guidelines, for me, the most important is to enjoy gaming with the party and the DM ^_^

not to mention saving The whole of Khorvaire with this build, the hero is butt ugly (or unique), is so damn cool for me! As long as it's by-the-book, I have a chance in proving that I'm politically correct >_<

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2010, 05:11:47 AM »
The other issue with white dragonspawn is there are several versions in print.

Depending on your campaign, it might be a good idea to offer to your DM to have some sort of code of conduct imposed by your draconic master or some such...
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Ardus

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2010, 05:22:13 AM »
Can you please tell me the other versions or what books where I can see it?

Runestar

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2010, 05:26:34 AM »
Are you aware that bugbear also comes with 3 racial HD? So your PC will be ECL5 before any class lvs, meaning that a bugbear dragonspawn monk1 is the equivalent of a 6th lv character, not a 3rd lv one.

I am pretty sure he agreed to waive only LA, not racial HD as well.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2010, 05:29:02 AM »
Can you please tell me the other versions or what books where I can see it?

Dragons of krynn is one version, I think expanded bestiary is the other.

The only real change is as follows:

A) Type changes to dragon

B) If you're using the LA+1 version, yer dragon overlord can use your sense at will and hit you with a dominate person whenever he feels like it.  IF you're using the LA+3 version, he can't do that.

There's also stuff about possibly acquiring the dragonspawn abomination template, which is in the gray area between heavily suggested flavor text and actual rules.
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Endarire

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 02:47:42 AM »
Level adjustment is the penalty for not playing a stereotype.  Really.  Unless a race or template is awesome- which White Dragonspawn is- then it's rarely worth taking, especially with polymorph and its derivatives around.

Savage Species admits that as levels rise, racial abilities fade in value.  I scratch my head and sometimes laugh at their level adjustment prices.  In short, level abilities are potentially awesome while racials are usually meh.  Is a breath weapon you want to reliably use worth a whole level, really?  There's a Wizard4/Cleric5 spell dragon's breath for that.  (See Spell Compendium 74.)  Natural armor and extra attacks are cool, but barkskin and girallon's blessing (Spell Compendium 106) cover those.  The most valuable aspects of the White Dragonspawn are +1 effective Sorcerer level and extraordinary flight.

Polymorph is considered broken for one main reason:  Level adjustments don't matter if you can spend a spell slot as a Wizard of any race and take the most important abilities.  Any Wizard can do this, provided he is high enough level.

Tell him you play a Monk, one of the weakest classes around.  Tell him your allies will soon outshine you if they play their tactics correctly.
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veekie

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 06:39:22 AM »
Quote
Tell him you play a Monk, one of the weakest classes around.  Tell him your allies will soon outshine you if they play their tactics correctly.
Someone not astute enough to realize that the LA abilities are overcosted is unlikely to buy that.
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Ardus

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 12:55:16 AM »
Thanks for the reply everyone... I appreciate it ^_^

Yeah true that I played as a monk clearly with this reasons:
1) Good saving throws
2) the bugbear white dragon spawn gives me a stat boost of STR+4 DEX+4 CON+4 and CHA-2 which is very nice for my build since I work with my group, meaning we have a role to play in the battlefield and I chose to be a controller - tripping, silencing enemy spellcasters (throat punch feat), make enemies do only standard actions in a round (Staggering strike feat, I'll get ninja lvls on the later game and get ascetic rogue) Etc. and a tanker - Good saving throws, nice AC (24 no buffs and armor) and good HP (a +4 on constitution mod)
3) Flurry w/ trip attacks
4) Monk Special Stunning Fist


Ardus

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Re: Bugbear White Dragonspawn LA+1 + LA+1 = LA+2
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2010, 05:23:51 PM »
yes, total of 4 players all in the same ECL