Author Topic: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle  (Read 3775 times)

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Endarire

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Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« on: April 01, 2010, 03:55:46 AM »
From what I see, I could apply Metamagic Effect to the Cloak of Deception maneuver- or any supernatural maneuver or stance- and Persist it.

Does this work?  If so, how?
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Saxony

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2010, 06:27:36 AM »
Most of the Metamagic feats (including Persistent Spell, just checked) very specifically only reference "spells", not "supernatural effects". Maneuvers are not spells. They may be supernatural effects in some cases, but they are not spells. Since those feats only affect spells, they don't affect Maneuvers.

Does "Metamagic Effect" meaning something other than the effect placed upon a spell with a Metamagic feat, or am I missing something else entirely?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 06:29:23 AM by Saxony »
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EjoThims

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2010, 06:50:14 AM »
Anything supernatural can be hit with the per day boosts, which can be found in MM, BoVD, and BoED, among others (including many in Tome of Magic) usually under the name "X Supernatural Ability" (such as Quicken, Widen, etc), so they would all work with any applicable maneuvers the same way they work with warlock invocations. Mortalbane is great for this, btw.  ;)

Rods, however, will not, as they specify that they give the applicable feat, which all specify spells.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2010, 07:08:27 AM »
From what I see, I could apply Metamagic Effect to the Cloak of Deception maneuver- or any supernatural maneuver or stance- and Persist it.

Does this work?  If so, how?
Does it say Spell Effect or just Supernatural effect? If so, then YES, it does work for anything that is a viable target for the metamagic feat... but wait, those are just spells (and, with generous hand-waving, supernatural effects that mimic spells). Unfortunately there are not meta-Inititiation feats.

Runestar

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2010, 08:51:44 AM »
It does in fact seem like that meta-SU feats can be applied to maneuvers.

Good catch there. I learn something new once again.  :o
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EjoThims

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2010, 10:51:43 AM »
It does in fact seem like that meta-SU feats can be applied to SU maneuvers.

Fixed for ya.

Remember, a limited number of maneuvers are SU. But if you stock up on them, the old school 3/day for each and 5/day for each BoVD meta-Su abilities are super useful, just like they are for warlocks. :D

snakeman830

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2010, 11:12:35 AM »
It does in fact seem like that meta-SU feats can be applied to SU maneuvers.

Fixed for ya.

Remember, a limited number of maneuvers are SU. But if you stock up on them, the old school 3/day for each and 5/day for each BoVD meta-Su abilities are super useful, just like they are for warlocks. :D
Considering a Warlock has one supernatural ability (Fiendish Resliance)...

Do you mean Binders?  Everything they get is Su.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2010, 11:27:11 AM »
It does in fact seem like that meta-SU feats can be applied to SU maneuvers.

Fixed for ya.

Remember, a limited number of maneuvers are SU. But if you stock up on them, the old school 3/day for each and 5/day for each BoVD meta-Su abilities are super useful, just like they are for warlocks. :D
Uh... the abilities in the BoVD are for SLAs, not Su abilities.

EjoThims

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2010, 12:11:44 PM »
Uh... the abilities in the BoVD are for SLAs, not Su abilities.

It's my bed time...

Similar ideas, different details... :P

BoVD stuff works with warlocks, not ToBers.

And the SU stuff works with binders and ToBers but not warlocks...

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2010, 01:11:44 PM »
isn't the desert wind capstone supernatural? and the shadow hand capstone too? and the devoted spirit one?

quicken that shit.
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Beltendu

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2010, 01:13:16 PM »
Is it possible the OP meant the "Metamagic Effect" ability of Incantatrix?  I don't have my books, but I seem to remember the Incantatrix having the ability to apply a metamagic feat to an existing, ongoing effect.  No idea off the top of my head if that would count existing effects from SU abilities, or if it only counts for existing effects from spells though.

snakeman830

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2010, 01:44:57 PM »
isn't the desert wind capstone supernatural? and the shadow hand capstone too? and the devoted spirit one?

quicken that shit.
Not Devoted Spirit (although it does refrence the Heal spell, so it apparently channels positive energy unlike all the other healing manuvers).  In fact, Devoted Spirit has NO Supernatural manuvers.
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By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
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Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2010, 02:29:54 PM »
Is it possible the OP meant the "Metamagic Effect" ability of Incantatrix?  I don't have my books, but I seem to remember the Incantatrix having the ability to apply a metamagic feat to an existing, ongoing effect.  No idea off the top of my head if that would count existing effects from SU abilities, or if it only counts for existing effects from spells though.
I know what the OP meant, except I did not check whether the ability checks for eligibility of the target effect for the desired meta(magic) feat.

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2010, 02:41:14 PM »
isn't the desert wind capstone supernatural? and the shadow hand capstone too? and the devoted spirit one?

quicken that shit.

Does a "Quicken Supernatural Ability" feat actually exist anywhere?  I've never been able to find one.  I own a lot of books, but not all of them.  If it is out there somewhere, I'd really love to know where.
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Beltendu

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2010, 02:42:38 PM »
Is it possible the OP meant the "Metamagic Effect" ability of Incantatrix?  I don't have my books, but I seem to remember the Incantatrix having the ability to apply a metamagic feat to an existing, ongoing effect.  No idea off the top of my head if that would count existing effects from SU abilities, or if it only counts for existing effects from spells though.
I know what the OP meant, except I did not check whether the ability checks for eligibility of the target effect for the desired meta(magic) feat.

Ah, I think I lost your post in the list of others talking about other ways to "metamagic" your maneuvers.

Runestar

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2010, 08:21:32 PM »
isn't the desert wind capstone supernatural? and the shadow hand capstone too? and the devoted spirit one?

quicken that shit.

Does a "Quicken Supernatural Ability" feat actually exist anywhere?  I've never been able to find one.  I own a lot of books, but not all of them.  If it is out there somewhere, I'd really love to know where.

Not that I am aware of. Tome of magic has empower, enlarge, widen. And they are not cheap (1 feat for a 1/day ability?). Doesn't seem like much synergy with shadow hand maneuvers. I suppose I could widen that desert wind capstone, but I already have a hard enough time try to avoid blasting my party with it... :P
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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2010, 01:25:59 AM »
It's funny this came up, I was actually homebrewing some Metamaneuver feats for this exact purpose.  It's not done, though I did sneak in a preview of what I planned as a class feature on a homebrew initiator class.

From the looks of it, since you can't exactly have the cost be a "higher spell slot" of any sort, I figure making it either 1/encounter or X/day would be fair, if you chose to create such things.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2010, 02:12:35 PM »
isn't the desert wind capstone supernatural? and the shadow hand capstone too? and the devoted spirit one?

quicken that shit.

Does a "Quicken Supernatural Ability" feat actually exist anywhere?  I've never been able to find one.  I own a lot of books, but not all of them.  If it is out there somewhere, I'd really love to know where.

Not that I am aware of. Tome of magic has empower, enlarge, widen. And they are not cheap (1 feat for a 1/day ability?). Doesn't seem like much synergy with shadow hand maneuvers. I suppose I could widen that desert wind capstone, but I already have a hard enough time try to avoid blasting my party with it... :P
Without having re-read anythign: Isn't it probable that Metamagic Effec does not use the daily use of these feats? IF you can even use them together at all.

cru

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2010, 02:38:56 PM »
another option to balance meta-maneuvers would be to use a mechanics similar to metabreath feats

Havok4

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Re: Metamagic Effect and Tome of Battle
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2010, 06:14:17 PM »
another option to balance meta-maneuvers would be to use a mechanics similar to metabreath feats

That would be hard to implement given the recover mechanics in use in the tome of battle. It could work with the metamagic effects adding additional recover attempts required to actually recover the maneuver.