Author Topic: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp  (Read 4258 times)

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BruceLeeroy

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Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« on: March 28, 2010, 04:59:56 AM »
Hey guys. I've built this character already to a middling-high standard of optimization, but I'm concerned with a few flaws I see in the build. Without further ado, the build --
Imp (Savage Progression, SS 179) 7, Beguiler 4/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 4.

Rules: 36 point buy, ECL 17 wealth, SRD, PH2, DMG 2, MiC, Any set of 3 Complete books. 2 Humorous flaws*, 1 trait. Imp's Alternate Form ability in SS doesn't seem to specify type, other than to say as "Polymorph Self", so I can have 2 alternate forms that are permanent choices. One form must be tiny/innocuous, one form can be a battle form. Only thing that can be used from SS is the Imp progression itself.

Critical flaws with the build currently: Very few class features, 2 main casting stats. Feat-starved.

Strengths of the build currently: Lots of spellcasting.

Notes: I'm specifically not trying to break the game. The other 2 players will also be imp spellcasters, so the power level certainly isn't low, but please no TO type of stuff. I'm open to Psionics, but I'm not very familiar with it, so any particular strengths of a psionics build might need to be explained in a little more depth than the vancian side of things.

Also, is there a RAW reason that a PrC that advances spellcasting wouldn't advance a double spellcasting class like the Mystic Theurge?


Thoughts?


*For example, one I've currently decided on: Cuddly. With this flaw, you are always considered unimpressive, silly, or squishy. No one feels threatened by you, at best you might come off a little creepy. Children want to play with you, pets want to violate you. -2 Diplomacy, -10 intimidate.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 05:03:28 AM by BruceLeeroy »

Surreal

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2010, 05:33:12 AM »
You're already severely behind casting with the LA from imp. Even picking up the accelerated casting from Ur-priest, you'll be behind. Don't gimp yourself further trying to fit in beguiler as well. If you're really set on dual casting, at least pick up something that uses the same stat... like Ardent.

Imp 7/Ardent 2/Ur-priest 2/Psionic Theurge works better. Your main stat is Wis, and practiced manifester means you don't need as many levels of Ardent (and 2 is your optimal point anyways).

edit: and you can't advance mystic theurge with a prestige class because MT itself doesn't have any casting for you to advance.
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BruceLeeroy

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2010, 06:10:33 AM »
I'll look into Ardent and Psionic Theurge.

I see what you mean with MT.

Edit: Wouldn't that make my Ur-Priest CL absurdly low? Like...6? 10 with Practiced Spellcaster? Admittedly, it's only 3 higher with an actual spellcasting class rather than a manifesting class, but still...that's a hit.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 07:29:08 AM by BruceLeeroy »

ninjarabbit

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2010, 10:58:10 AM »
I'm thinking imp7/duskblade13

16 BAB, 4th level spells, full attack arcane channeling, fly-by attack is a good feat along with practiced spellcaster, power attack, knowledge devotion, and arcane strike with some rings of wizardry.

Maat_Mons

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2010, 12:01:31 PM »
Imp's Alternate Form ability in SS doesn't seem to specify type, other than to say as "Polymorph Self", so I can have 2 alternate forms that are permanent choices. One form must be tiny/innocuous, one form can be a battle form.

I don't see why a savage progression imp would be able to select forms a normal imp cannot.  According to the errata:

Quote
Alternate Form (Su): An imp can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2010, 02:49:33 PM »
Imp's Alternate Form ability in SS doesn't seem to specify type, other than to say as "Polymorph Self", so I can have 2 alternate forms that are permanent choices. One form must be tiny/innocuous, one form can be a battle form. Only thing that can be used from SS is the Imp progression itself.

Also, is there a RAW reason that a PrC that advances spellcasting wouldn't advance a double spellcasting class like the Mystic Theurge?
SS is 3.0, and Polymorph was changed a lot into 3.5. And Imp has been updated.

And yes to double progression. PrC advance a base spellcasting class only.

Akalsaris

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 05:33:13 PM »
Well, assuming for the moment that he can choose any 2 forms because he's a PC and therefore already quite unusual among imps, I'd look at the War Troll for a combat form, and a sparrow as a cuddly :bigeye form.

LargePrime

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2010, 05:47:55 PM »
Well, assuming for the moment that he can choose any 2 forms because he's a PC and therefore already quite unusual among imps, I'd look at the War Troll for a combat form, and a sparrow as a cuddly :bigeye form.
Furry War Troll.  Big floppy ears.  Tail.  flavor to taste...

Surreal

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 05:49:22 PM »
If you're using the Savage Species imp, then you can qualify for Warshaper. Maybe just focus on the martial end since you already have two casters?
---
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Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

BruceLeeroy

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 06:09:28 PM »
Imp's Alternate Form ability in SS doesn't seem to specify type, other than to say as "Polymorph Self", so I can have 2 alternate forms that are permanent choices. One form must be tiny/innocuous, one form can be a battle form.

I don't see why a savage progression imp would be able to select forms a normal imp cannot.  According to the errata:

Quote
Alternate Form (Su): An imp can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar.


Interesting. However, I have absolutely zero desire to bring that to the attention of my DM, because as written in the book it sounds like I can take a Barbed Devil (Hamatula) as my second form. No access to MM2-5, unfortunately, so War Troll isn't an option. Can anyone think of a form better than the Hamatula? Hmm. I guess there's another key point I forgot to mention last night: Metamorphic Transfer. My Dm is allowing caster levels to work for the Manifester Level prerequisite. So, Supernatural abilities are up for grabs. Again, only two forms, and they are permanent decisions, from the MM only.

Ninjarabbit: For some reason, the duskblade has always felt a little retarded to me. Not sure it's anything rational. But thanks for the suggestion anyhow.

Akalsaris: Both forms will be cuddly-seeming, due to the flaw (I'm imagining the barbed devil as being some silly colors, like a children's doll, with plushy-looking spikes). However, one must be more-or-less harmless in fact, rather than just appearance. Sparrow is a good choice. I'm considering trying to convince my DM to allow Carebear form, though. For sheer ridiculousness.

Surreal: Couldn't another caster just focus on the martial end, and better than a warshaper, too? Divine Power, Righteous Might, Infernal Transformation, Stone Body, GMW.... I'm well practiced with Clerical tanking. Adding the versatility of another spellcasting/manifesting progression could just make it better.

Thanks for the replies
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Surreal

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2010, 06:54:41 PM »
Surreal: Couldn't another caster just focus on the martial end, and better than a warshaper, too? Divine Power, Righteous Might, Infernal Transformation, Stone Body, GMW.... I'm well practiced with Clerical tanking. Adding the versatility of another spellcasting/manifesting progression could just make it better.

I was thinking a martial adept with iron heart surge or somesuch, but I guess you don't have Tome of Battle on your list of sourcebooks available.

How about Ardent 10 for the Dominant Ideal ACF and abuse action economy?
---
"The late, sedate, and no to great." ~Surreal

Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

BruceLeeroy

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2010, 06:57:58 PM »
Huuur? Where is this ACF at? If it's not in the listed books, probably won't fly. He's being really strict because I'm doing the same in the game I run. heh. I probably won't even get to use Psychic Theurge, since it's a web enhancement.

Surreal

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Re: Character optimization challenge - Savage Species Imp
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2010, 10:26:44 PM »
Sorry, the Dominant Ideal is an Ardent ACF in a mind's eye "expanded class" article here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a
At level 10 you trade the mantle gained for reduced metapsionic costs and the ability to apply metapsionic feats without expending focus.

If you do continue the psionic idea, pick a good alternate form and get metamorphic transfer.
---
"The late, sedate, and no to great." ~Surreal

Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills