Author Topic: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....  (Read 3853 times)

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Tonymitsu

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2010, 07:22:43 PM »
Quote
A 'normal' spell only has a 50% chance of working on incorporeal creatures, so the 'full' normal effect means that it has 100% chance of working on incorporeal creatures.... but since they are incorporeal, their ability to move through solid objects is not nullified, and they can still move through the web.

Where did you read this?

I double-checked the MM1 Glossary on Incorporeal subtype and it states that they have a 50% chance to ignore damage from a corporeal source (unless it is positive energy, negative energy, a force effect, or a ghost touch weapon), not ignore the spell or effect itself.

Now of course if you were silly enough to not drop the web directly on him, then I'd say you get what you deserve when he enters the wall in front of the effect, walks around it, and exits back into the corridor once past.

EDIT:  Ah, okay.  The "normal" section of Transdimensional Spell is attempting to trump the Incorporeal subtype entry in MM1.  =\
Way to go, Wizards...
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 01:20:57 AM by Tonymitsu »

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2010, 06:23:43 AM »
Why do you say it like it's a bad thing?  Isn't assaulting ghostly things the point?
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Hallack

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2010, 12:09:28 PM »
I think I have to agree that it SHOULD affect incorporeal creatures such as Shadows.

If that was not the intent then why even have incorporeal listed as one of the 4 types affected by the Transdiminsional feat?

Ethreal, Shadow, and Extra Dimensional are all listed as affected targets and we all will agree that those are examples of Corporeal forms just in a co-existant space.

If that is all that was to be affected then they could/should have left incorporeal out of the Feat altogether.

Also the "full normal" part was just horrid wording on wotc part as by the strictest RAW (in regards to incorporeal creatures) it means that it has the full normal 50% chance not to effect them.   

So by that reading this feat gives you 50% chance to affect incorporeal creatures with spells just like normal... "full normal" even which is just retarded.

I see how the other interpretation is reached but it just does not hold water.

This is especially true given how it would make an already situational feat even more situational. 

If it is only going to effect forms co-existent via Ethreal, Shadow, and Extra Dimensional then just strike the incorporeal creatures out of the feat and that would give you the effect on those planes while not affecting other incorporeals that are on co-existing.

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Tonymitsu

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2010, 02:24:47 PM »
Why do you say it like it's a bad thing?  Isn't assaulting ghostly things the point?

The problem here is that the MM1 entry tells us that all spells will affect incorporeal creatures 100% of the time.  The only thing they get to do is roll a 50/50 to ignore damage, unless it's one of those four kinds of damage described there...
So in other words, if I'm a cleric and there's a shadow here, I can cast cure light wounds and make a touch attack on a ghost, because this channels positive energy, and have a 100% chance to do some damage to him.  this is something I have actually seen done in a low magic campaign when turning failed.  Same goes if I cast an inflict spell and want to touch him to heal him, since it channels negative energy.
If a spell doesn't deal damage it still hits them.  The entry clearly says even when hit by spells they have a 50% chance to ignore damage.  Says nothing about ignoring the effect, only the damage.
Thus if I web a ghost, he's entangled because it's a spell effect.  Of course if I web the corridor in front of a ghost, he simply enters the wall and walks around it.


Enter Transdimensional Spell feat from Complete Arcane:

The last sentence of the "Normal" entry right under the feat benefit (the part that describes how things normally work so you can better understand the "benefit" you are getting) tells us that "There's a 50% chance that any spell other than a force effect fails against an incorporeal creature."

Oh...

Well now not only can we no longer reliably web, sleet storm, glitterdust, or whatever the ghost... but now our clerics can no longer use their cures and inflicts on them because they are not force effects.

...What?



Consult the Rules Compendium:

Page 64, Incorporeality...

Rejoice!  Sanity abounds:
Quote
Nondamaging effects affect incorporeal creatures normally unless such effects require corporeal targets to function (such as implosion) or they create a corporeal effect that incorporeal
creatures are normally unaffected by (such as web or wall of stone).
(Wow, we've been doing that one wrong...  :embarrassed)

There is even a little sidebar at the bottom where an author talks briefly about the mage spell Ghostform and what it grants the caster in terms of becoming incorporeal, like whether he can still be dominated, or gain the benefit of the bard's Greater Heroism.  It was here that he said the line above was added to the Incorporeal definition in Monster Manual III.


So we can conclude a few things from these various definitions:

-Since the Monster Manual is the primary source, positive/negative energy attacks, force effects, and ghost touch weapons all affect incorporeal things normally.  The complete arcane "normal", as a secondary source that contradicts a primary, is summarily ignored.
-All other spells that deal damage have a 50% chance to not deal their damage against an incorporeal target
-Spells that specifically call out that they effect incorporeal targets or reach across planes also affect incorporeal targets normally
-All spell effects that require something corporeal to function AND do not call out that they effect incorporeal things fail 100% of the time

Now the Transdimensional Spell feat:

"A spell has it's full normal effect on an incorporeal target..."

A web would normally affect an incorporeal target, but fails because he can walk through it.
A Shards of Ice spell would have a 50/50 shot to deal it's ice damage, but have no effect on the ghost's speed because he can pass through them.

Transdimensional Spell breaks that last rule and allows a spell to have it's full normal effect on an incorporeal target.  In a fashion, it causes the spell prepared this way to now call out that it affects incorporeal targets.

To interpret it any other way would have it do nothing.  Even a lightning bolt prepared as a Transdimensional to have it's "full normal effect" would simply cause the DM to pick up the dice and roll the "normal" 50% ignore damage chance.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2010, 02:33:00 PM »
To interpret it any other way would have it do nothing.  Even a lightning bolt prepared as a Transdimensional to have it's "full normal effect" would simply cause the DM to pick up the dice and roll the "normal" 50% ignore damage chance.
... this is where you jump off the rails of reason.

A lightning bolt doesn't affect an incorpreal target "normally". The "normal" effect of a lightning bolt is to do electrical damage. That's what it does to everything else. Incorporeals have their own special rules on how it interacts with them. That's not "normal", that's the exception.

So if the feat lets you affect them "normally", then it means you ignore the miss chance. Any other reading is illogical nonsense.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Tonymitsu

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2010, 02:39:12 PM »
To interpret it any other way would have it do nothing.  Even a lightning bolt prepared as a Transdimensional to have it's "full normal effect" would simply cause the DM to pick up the dice and roll the "normal" 50% ignore damage chance.
... this is where you jump off the rails of reason.

A lightning bolt doesn't affect an incorpreal target "normally". The "normal" effect of a lightning bolt is to do electrical damage. That's what it does to everything else. Incorporeals have their own special rules on how it interacts with them. That's not "normal", that's the exception.

So if the feat lets you affect them "normally", then it means you ignore the miss chance. Any other reading is illogical nonsense.

Right.  Exactly.

I was trying to make an example like on the first page of a ghost simply passing through a Transdimensional Web, and agreeing that's insane. :(

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2010, 03:18:49 PM »
To interpret it any other way would have it do nothing.  Even a lightning bolt prepared as a Transdimensional to have it's "full normal effect" would simply cause the DM to pick up the dice and roll the "normal" 50% ignore damage chance.
... this is where you jump off the rails of reason.

A lightning bolt doesn't affect an incorpreal target "normally". The "normal" effect of a lightning bolt is to do electrical damage. That's what it does to everything else. Incorporeals have their own special rules on how it interacts with them. That's not "normal", that's the exception.

So if the feat lets you affect them "normally", then it means you ignore the miss chance. Any other reading is illogical nonsense.

Right.  Exactly.

I was trying to make an example like on the first page of a ghost simply passing through a Transdimensional Web, and agreeing that's insane. :(
Ok... so you were saying the same thing. I was just a bit confused by your post, as you seem to have been going back and forth arguing both sides, and I wasn't sure which one you were actually arguing for. ;)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Hallack

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2010, 12:28:19 PM »
So I gather that the general consensus is that Transdimensional Spells would affect incorporeal things just as they would corporeal things?
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2010, 03:50:11 PM »
So I gather that the general consensus is that Transdimensional Spells would affect incorporeal things just as they would corporeal things?

I'd say so.

The key thing here is that the "normal" portion of the Transdimensional spell feat is completely wrong, as there are things besides force affects that automatically deal damage to incorporeal creatures.  In addition, all spells function against incorporeal creatures unless they require a corporeal target.