Author Topic: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....  (Read 3851 times)

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Hallack

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How does Transdimensional Spell feat work against incorporeal creatures?

Fireballs, Orbs, and other generally instantaneous sorts of effects just doe their damage ignoring the normal 50% miss chance I believe.

But what happens when you are Transdimensional Web/Solid Fog/Wall of Stone when dealing with incorporeal creatures. 

Does the particular creature's incorporealness of matter?  Meaning, does it interact differently with something like a Ghost vs a Shadow?

Thanks
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CantripN

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 11:37:29 AM »
On the Ethereal, Ghosts have a corporeal body and a STR score, so they are affected by such spells as other material corporeal beings would. As for things that are Incorporeal without being on the Ethereal, Transdimensional Spells don't help any, as they aren't on any plane other than on the Material.
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Hallack

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 01:14:47 PM »
I actually feel kind of silly now.  Last night during a game and this morning before posting this I had not picked up the feat and read it for myself. 

On actually reading it and not just listening (apparently not well enough) to a friend reading it seems pretty obvious that the Shadows incorporealness is not bothered by the Transdimensional Web and can move through it normally (as incorporeal).

Sorry Black Knight, should have taken the book last night and read it hehe.  Would have saved 30 minutes LOL
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2010, 01:34:11 PM »
Actually, you did it correctly. Ghosts exist on the Ethereal Plane, and have a strength score there. Shadows don't. They exist on the Prime, but are incorporeal. So they actually don't have a strength score at all.
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Hallack

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 02:28:14 PM »
Actually, you did it correctly. Ghosts exist on the Ethereal Plane, and have a strength score there. Shadows don't. They exist on the Prime, but are incorporeal. So they actually don't have a strength score at all.

Problem is that I and a friend (the caster of the Web) were arguing that it should Web the Shadows due to its Transdimensional nature despite Shadows being fully on the Prime plane.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 02:31:58 PM »
Ok, I had to read the feat. I'd forgotten this part:
Quote
A transdimensional spell has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures
So yeah, it looks like it should have webbed them (which is stupid... but seems to be explicitly RAW).
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Black Knight

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 02:37:13 PM »
Ok, I had to read the feat. I'd forgotten this part:
Quote
A transdimensional spell has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures
So yeah, it looks like it should have webbed them (which is stupid... but seems to be explicitly RAW).

A 'normal' spell only has a 50% chance of working on incorporeal creatures, so the 'full' normal effect means that it has 100% chance of working on incorporeal creatures.... but since they are incorporeal, their ability to move through solid objects is not nullified, and they can still move through the web.
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Hallack

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 02:52:47 PM »
The feat lists 4 distinct types of creatures that it effects.

1) Incorporeal
2) On Ethereal Plane
3) On Shadow Plane
4) In Extrademinsional space

It then lists examples and the examples included are those making use of dual planes but the examples are not necessarily going to rule out affecting other types of incorporeal (which are listed as affected).

I do have to say that "full normal effect" is much more than just a miss chance issue.

How about other examples of incorporeal such as Gaseous form?  Nevermind Gaseous form... that is just insubstantial and doesn't grant incorporeal subtype.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 02:56:06 PM by Hallack »
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 03:14:54 PM »
Ok, I had to read the feat. I'd forgotten this part:
Quote
A transdimensional spell has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures
So yeah, it looks like it should have webbed them (which is stupid... but seems to be explicitly RAW).

A 'normal' spell only has a 50% chance of working on incorporeal creatures, so the 'full' normal effect means that it has 100% chance of working on incorporeal creatures.... but since they are incorporeal, their ability to move through solid objects is not nullified, and they can still move through the web.
Hmm... this is an interesting conundrum.

I see what you're saying. To use an example, you're saying that claiming you can catch a Shadow in a Transdimensional Web is analogous to claiming that a Shadow would be "charmed" by a Transdimensional Charm Person.

I don't think I agree. Part of what this feat seems to do is specifically nullify the effects of being incorporeal, one of which is being able to move through objects.
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Anklebite

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2010, 03:16:18 PM »
to me, it makes perfect sense that a transdimensional web would stop them.

yes, a normal web would not. but this one is spectral.
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Black Knight

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 06:57:28 PM »
Let's not overlook in this discusion what the Normal section of the Transdimensional feat says concerning incorporeals:

Normal:
Quote
There is a 50% chance that any spell other than a force effect fails against an incorporeal creature

This is what the feat says is changed in regards to incorporeal creatures.

@PhaedrusXY -- I see your point and could see how Hallack and others might view it that way.

@Hallack -- 'full normal effect' is exactly what this discussion is about.  Web does not stop incorporeal creatures... IMO, the full normal effect of Transdimension web STILL does not stop incorporeal creatures.

@Anklebite -- That would be a perfectly acceptable homebrew rule, but I'm not convinced that its RAW
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Anklebite

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2010, 07:15:11 PM »
@Anklebite -- That would be a perfectly acceptable homebrew rule, but I'm not convinced that its RAW

[spoiler]transdimensional spell[metamagic]
benefit: a transdimensional spell has it's full normal effect on incorporeal
creatures
, creatures on the ethereal plane or the plane of shadow, and creatures
within an extradimensional space in the spell's area. such creatures include ethereal
creatures, creatures that are blinking or shadow walking, manifested ghosts, and
creatures within the extradimensional space of a rope trick, portable hole, or
familiar pocket(see page 106).
you must be able to perceive a creature to target it with a transdimensional spell,
but you do not need to perceive a creature to catch it in the area of a burst, cone,
emanation, or spread.
a transdimensional spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual
level.[/spoiler]
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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2010, 01:59:14 AM »
Well, the normal effect of web doesn't affect incorporeal creatures, so the full normal effect doesn't affect incorporeal creatures.

QED :p
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Anklebite

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2010, 02:03:14 AM »
Well, the normal effect of web doesn't affect incorporeal creatures, so the full normal effect doesn't affect incorporeal creatures.

QED :p

yes, but it has it's normal effect, which is then applied to incorporeal creatures.

by your argument, transdimensional spell doesn't work at all.  a spell's normal effect is a 50% chance to work vs incorporeal, whereas very few spell's normal effect reaches the ethereal or shadow planes, not to mention pocket dimensions.

note that the feat doesn't say "if it normally had a chance to effect the incorporeal". it just says "has it's full normal effect on incorporeal creatures".
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SolEiji

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2010, 02:11:50 AM »
I'm going to have to side with it working.  The wording suggests that you treat an incorporeal creature as a normal creature for the purpose of the spell, even by the RAW outlook.  Certainly RAI, it should stop them.
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Black Knight

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2010, 01:53:41 PM »
Well, the normal effect of web doesn't affect incorporeal creatures, so the full normal effect doesn't affect incorporeal creatures.

QED :p

yes, but it has it's normal effect, which is then applied to incorporeal creatures.

by your argument, transdimensional spell doesn't work at all.  a spell's normal effect is a 50% chance to work vs incorporeal, whereas very few spell's normal effect reaches the ethereal or shadow planes, not to mention pocket dimensions.

note that the feat doesn't say "if it normally had a chance to effect the incorporeal". it just says "has it's full normal effect on incorporeal creatures".

Not true. 

Any creature that is corporeal on the Ethereal, Shadow, Prime, or a pocket dimension whose entrance is within the area of effect can be affected by the transdimensional web.  However, those creatures' defenses, abilities, etc. still apply.  So a person on the ethereal plane that has Freedom of Movement active would not be caught in the Web, even though the Transdimensional web has it's full normal effect against them.

If you create a Wall of Stone, an incorporeal creature can move through it.  If you create a Transdimensional Wall of Stone, it's a wall that exists in multiple dimensions at the same time.  Its transdimensional property blocks movement on the Ethereal, Shadow, and Prime for corporeal creatures.

There are many spells beyond Web that would affect incorporeal creatures... like the classic Fireball, which would not suffer from the normal 50% chance of failure against incorporeal.

Also, consider what a partial normal effect would be...   perhaps the 50% chance of any non-force spell from working at all
 
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Anklebite

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2010, 01:58:54 PM »
this sounds like a case of specific trumps general. the question is, which one is more specific?
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veekie

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2010, 02:44:51 PM »
RAI looks like the Web could catch an incorporeal creature, if it failed the Ref save, but trying to block an incorporeal creature with a Web wouldn't really work as the Web still can't pass through solid objects and the creature can by passing through the wall the Web is anchored to.
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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2010, 10:25:46 PM »
Well the issue here is whether immunities gained from the incorporeal subtype will still be effective when confronted with a metamagic feat designed to bypass the immunities of the incorporeal subtype. I could see it technically not working but it reminds me of the monk not being proficient with unarmed strikes which rubs me the wrong way.

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Re: Transdimensional Spell Feat functionality or Web a Shadow....
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2010, 06:50:07 PM »
the question is, which one is more specific?
Lol. RAW is so silly  :lol
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