Author Topic: Ways to increase Charisma?  (Read 51891 times)

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2010, 06:08:33 PM »
Rightous aura is not transmutation so it will only grant a +4 bonus.  Also how are you casting spells with both evil and good descriptors.  I guess you could craft an item that casts the spell for you, but I am not sure what would make it Kosher for alignment purposes.

Someone also posted there was a slither graft that increased Cha, but I did not see one in lords of madness.  Is there another source of slither grafts?

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And you're right about Righteous Aura. I was looking at Righteous Fury right below it.

Widow

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2010, 01:31:17 AM »
There isn't such a Graft in any book, but it's one likely to be allowed by a DM. As for the spells, only Divine Casters are prevented from casting spells that oppose their alignment (and even then, you can be a LN/TN/CN and still cast both Good and Evil) - my DM house-ruled otherwise, but RAW it works.

I understand only divine spell casters are limited to spell selection by alignment, but your build is a paladin which requires you to have a good alignment.  Casting a spell with the evil descriptor is an evil act.  I just wanted to point out that not all DM's will allow a paladin to committ an evil act on a daily basis without alignment consequences.  I know I could not get away with it, otherwise Devil's ego would already by on my arcane list.  Now if you were neutral and got the paladin spell list added to an arcane class's spell list (chameleon, eldrich master PrC from dragon 280), then you would be fine.

We ran into a similar situation recently where a good aligned character with exalted feats wanted to shapechange into a pit fiend, which would bestow the evil subtype on the character causing all kinds of problems.  Regardless of alignment, you still count as evil if you have the evil subtype type for spells and effects.

As for the graft, I just got all excited and hoped there was one.  My character could use another +2 ;-)  Which reminds me, if you don't mind looking like a nightmare, Horse Shoes of the Flame from savage species is great.  It grants a +10 Int, +6 Cha, +2 Dex all as unlisted bonuses and grants perfect flight.  One, I would pay double to make them slotless since you don't have hooves.  Two you need to follow that up with a use magic device check to emulate race (horse).  I have used that on a psion character and it was great.  Results may vary for spell casters that don't have still and silent spell.

On a side note, does anyone know a way to add a school or type to an existing spell.  It would be great if there was a way to make a spell transmutation in addition to its normal school for ability enchancer.  Or if you could apply one of the good spell feats to strip the evil type from the spell.  It has been something I have been thinking about for awhile, but assume is not possible.  People would have figured it would for mage armor and Abjuration champion if it was possible I think.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 01:35:41 AM by Widow »

CuddableKae

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2010, 02:03:27 AM »
I understand only divine spell casters are limited to spell selection by alignment, but your build is a paladin which requires you to have a good alignment.

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CantripN

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2010, 01:08:31 PM »
There's an ACF in UA that lets a Transmuter pick a spell at 5th/10th/15th/20th level instead of a Bonus Feat and make Transmutation, even if it was a spell he prohibited.
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Widow

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2010, 08:43:36 PM »
I understand only divine spell casters are limited to spell selection by alignment, but your build is a paladin which requires you to have a good alignment.

Meet Paladin of Freedom, Tyranny, and Slaughter.

Yeah, but did you look at the build.  He went with Paladin of Freedom which still requires a good alignment.  Also you cannot just simply change it to Tyranny or Slaughter because they require you to be evil.  An evil character will not gain a Cha bonus from Inner beauty, they actually receive a penalty.  Greater visage of the deity also gives you the Half-Fiend template if you are evil instead of Half-celestine, which I believe gives a lower bonus to Cha (+2 instead of +4).

I have been looking over consecrate spell metamagics and the best you can do is make the spell both good and evil subtyped.  I dont think the paladin gets a free pass on an evil act by also performing a good one.  I wonder if we can work Grey guard into the build, they might be able to get away with questionable acts such as casting Devil's ego if it is for the greater good.

CantripN

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2010, 09:33:57 PM »
Any DM that ruled casting an [Evil] spell an Evil act in and of itself, would get smacked on the head by me. Would a Paladin of Slaughter "Fall" for casting Grave Strike to kill a Deathless enemy? What about Protection from Evil? After all, Evil has all the more reason to fear other Evil, what with long association. How about a Succubus casting Quickshift? Would she get her ass spanked for being goody-to-shoes for quickly teleporting to a Paladin's side and kissing him to death? Refreshment? Shield of the Archons? Undeath's Eternal Foe? Wages of Sin - as an Evil Enchanter, I'd find this one hilarious! Unearthly Beauty - my NE Druid would like you to die now!

Sure, casting Animate Dead might be Evil, as would stealing someone's soul, but reveling in Ego? Seriously? As an atheist, I'd find this annoying, but hardly Evil. Is Ego Whip [Evil]?!
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2010, 09:36:02 PM »
The conversation about alignment tags on spells begins and ends with deathwatch.
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Agita

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2010, 10:17:12 PM »
Any DM that ruled casting an [Evil] spell an Evil act in and of itself, would get smacked on the head by me. Would a Paladin of Slaughter "Fall" for casting Grave Strike to kill a Deathless enemy? What about Protection from Evil? After all, Evil has all the more reason to fear other Evil, what with long association. How about a Succubus casting Quickshift? Would she get her ass spanked for being goody-to-shoes for quickly teleporting to a Paladin's side and kissing him to death? Refreshment? Shield of the Archons? Undeath's Eternal Foe? Wages of Sin - as an Evil Enchanter, I'd find this one hilarious! Unearthly Beauty - my NE Druid would like you to die now!

Sure, casting Animate Dead might be Evil, as would stealing someone's soul, but reveling in Ego? Seriously? As an atheist, I'd find this annoying, but hardly Evil. Is Ego Whip [Evil]?!
Feel free to smack me on the head then, because I do think casting an [Evil] spell should be an evil act.
However, most alignment tags on spells don't make sense. Especially those in BoED and BoVD. The spells you pointed out all seem to be examples of spells that have no business having an alignment descriptor. See also: Deathwatch, as TML pointed out.
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Havok4

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2010, 01:46:10 AM »
The only issue I have with the good/evil spells causing alignment shifts is that there is a bias towards evil as few people will say that an evil character casting a good spell is risking and alignment shift while many people believe the opposite when it comes to evil spells. As long as the DM treats both actions equally I see no problems.

Arcane-surge

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2010, 01:52:27 AM »
Nono, there need to be exceptions for [good] spells. See, when you kill a bunch of CN orphans with Holy Word, it's a good act. You're making the world a better place through population control. But when you use Blasphemy, it's eeeeeeevil. You're a murderer.
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Havok4

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2010, 02:04:48 AM »
I will agree with you that how you use the spell is much more important than their spell descriptor and that their descriptor should really be changed from Good/Evil to Pleasant/Creepy or something like that as it seems to be mostly flavor.


Arcane-surge

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2010, 02:21:53 AM »
You're right, Bill. Apologies.

I recommend grabbing the feats Ability Enhancer, or Fell Energy Spell, or both. Ability Enhancer will buff the stat gains from all those Transmutation spells by +2, and Fell Energy will boost any of them by another +2, if you cast Shroud of Undeath first.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a spell in BoED that does something similar to Greater Visage of the Deity without BEING Greater Visage (I think it's just the good half) so hypothetically you could run both at the same time.
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Widow

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2010, 02:53:03 AM »
Also, I'm pretty sure there's a spell in BoED that does something similar to Greater Visage of the Deity without BEING Greater Visage (I think it's just the good half) so hypothetically you could run both at the same time.

I always thought Aspect of the Deity was renamed to visage, but it is not on the list of changed spells in the spell compendium.  Unfortunately Aspect of the Deity grants an enchancement bonus so it is mostly worthless anyway with all the other enhancement bonuses available.  The spell is also on a pretty restrictive list of spell lists.

As for Shroud of undeath, I have been wondering how that works.  I assume when it says you are now treated as undead for spells and effects, that is only for effects that specifically list  how they effect undead.  For instance, Mind effecting spells do not mention undead so they would still effect you, even though the undead type has immunity to mind effects.  It would be really scary if the level 2 spell gave you all the immunities of the undead, especially when there are higher level spells that grant the immunities.  I only bring this up because Fell Energy spell would help out Snowsong, but snowsong grants a morale bonus which would not normally affect undead.  Oh, the veil of Undeath spell is EVILLL  :P.  Kiss of the Vampire works too (not evil) and lets you attack other undead, but does not make you look normal like shroud of Undeath.

nijineko

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2010, 09:28:47 PM »
the official 3.5 conversion of the crystal master (wotc website) gives untyped boosts to stats, including charisma. combine with tattooed monk for further boosts.
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Surreal

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2010, 10:10:35 PM »
Back on my old handy links, I had a thread called "classes that boost stats, the table". The link doesn't work now, but if someone could dig it up on the archive.org or something like that, I'm sure it would be helpful.
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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2010, 10:17:46 PM »
Ask and Ye Shall Receive !!
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Widow

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2010, 01:18:34 AM »
I just noticed Defenders of the Faith has an armor ability called Command that grants a +4 Competence bonus to Charisma for a +2 enhancement amongst other things.

McPoyo

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2010, 01:54:24 PM »
Greater Visage of the Deity is low, in that build. The amount it grants should be higher, thanks to Ability Enhancer.

Could also tack in Fell Energy while you are at it, with one of the spells that lets you function as though you had the undead type, if you just didn't want to be undead.
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Widow

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Re: Ways to increase Charisma?
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2010, 10:13:55 PM »
No it says charisma related checks, it does not limit to skill checks.

thats what i found at Crystal keep .... here is from another source:

Nymph's Kiss
Type: Exalted
Source: Book of Exalted Deeds
By maintaining an intimate relationship with a good-aligned fey (such as a nymph or dryad), you gain some of the characteristics of fey.
Benefit: Fey creatures regard you as though you were fey. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on all Charisma-related checks and a +l bonus on all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. Starting with the level when you take this feat, you gain 1 extra skill point per level.

so it looks like you were right ..... but still need to make it Related to Combat ..... Charming the Arrow definately will, Divine Might might also qualify, Snowflake wardance might also

 :D

Ut oh, that thunderlance just got even more interesting.  The Circlet of Persuasion in the DMG should be just as useful.  It grants a +3 comp bonus on wearer’s Charisma-based checks.


once again, marshal becomes hilarious.  motivate dex, and it now applies to initiative!

The marshal is great, but it does not work the same.  All that stat choices state they add to Stat checks and stat based skill checks, not all stat related checks like Nymph’s kiss and the circlet of persuasion.  But on the bright side modivate dex already states in it’s description that it adds to initative.

I wonder how things work with saving throws if you add your charisma to them.  I am just glad the marshal is not as liberal as the feat and the magic item, or it would get really scary.

Edit:  Looking over the Rules Compendium’s section on checks, it stats that combat and spell casting have their own rules while checks handles everything else.  Standard melee attacks are never described as being checks, while some special maneuvers are listed as checks (grapple and such).  Further more saving throws are listed as saves in the compendium.  Unfortunately they then add in caster level checks into the check system, despite it being spell casting related.

Based on this I don’t think you can count most standard melee or ranged attacks as checks.  And while it is not completely clear if special maneuvers or caster level checks count, it is interesting to see that the marshal has auras specifically grant bonus to them separate than the ability checks and skill checks (again though the marshal does not function identically to the Nymph’s kiss and the circlet).
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 11:59:37 PM by Widow »