Author Topic: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?  (Read 3786 times)

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Endarire

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Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« on: March 25, 2010, 04:36:22 AM »
Background
The DM is leery about letting characters- even martial adepts- get maneuver-granting items.  We're a party of a human Druid8, a gray elf Conjurer5/Swordsage1/Incantatrix2, a human Cleric4/Crusader1/Ruby Knight Vindicator3, and a human Artificer7/Effigy Master1.

At level 5, we got so many AC boosters that the DM instituted an AC cap of 4x one's HD.  (This also prevents me from having an AC of 45ish at this level with all m' buffs.)

He probably knee-jerked at the notion of people reliably passing saves or teleporting once per minute.

My Argument
Paying 3K to buy an item to grant Shadow Jaunt/Mind Over Body/Distracting Ember (or less if the DM's Artificer crafts it) seems reasonable in a level 8 party.  We're at the level where the rules state even non-martial adepts can use these.  Such items have significant limits on their use, and there are other factors that limit these items.

-Effect:  Even a level 1 spell can end a fight.  Color spray, grease, and sleep were far more potent at level 1 than they are now at level 8 but they may still have minor use.  Likewise, a level 1 maneuver usually does a bit of damage with a slight side effect.  Once per minute, doing +d6 fire damage with Burning Blade or summoning a flanking buddy for 1 round with Distracting Ember or nearly auto-passing a Will save with Moment of Perfect Mind or healing a friend for d6+4 damage if I hit with Crusader's Strike are fun, minor abilities.  These maneuvers add flair to melee, allowing all characters to do more in melee than charge or full attack.

At level 9, a pure martial adept gets level 5 maneuvers.  He gets an extra attack per round with Dancing Mongoose.  With Shadow Stride, he can teleport 50' as a move action.  He can prevent one foe from acting for 1 round with Disrupting Blow if it fails a save.  With Flanking Maneuver, he can grant allies a free attack against a foe he flanks.  With Heroic Surge, he could use all 4 of these maneuvers in 1 turn!

Meanwhile, at level 9, a pure Wizard can use lesser planar binding to capture outsiders and elementals to do his bidding.  (These creatures can have class levels, including martial adept levels.)  He can teleport across worlds as a standard action.  He can use contact other plane to gain so much information that deities put him on his no-call list.  Being able to reliably pass a Reflex save once per minute with Action Before Thought, a level 2 maneuver, is small potatoes.

Compare this to a full martial adept20.  His crowning achivements- level 9 maneuvers- include Strike of Righteous Vitality to reproduce heal (normally a level 6 Cleric spell), Time Stands Still to grant him 2 consecutive full attacks in a round, and Inferno Blast that does 100 fire damage in a 60' radius, (Reflex 19+WIS mod half), or less if the target resists fire.  These maneuvers also have prerequisites, making a character unlikely to have all three by level 20.

In contrast, a level 20 Wizard could take over the Prime Material with a legion of troops gained from planar binding, animate dead, create dead, gate, simulacrum, and good o' Diplomacy.  He could use genesis to make a private demiplane.  He could tour the multiverse on a whim with plane shift.  He could make a stronghold impossible to penetrate, short of divine intervention.  The only prereq to having these spells is a high enough Wizard level.  Even without spending a gold on spells, he could know all these spells and many more by his class level alone.

A caster alters reality.  A martial character hits things.

-Prerequisites: The user of an item still must meet its prereqs.  In general, that means we can only use a level 1 or 2 maneuver at level 8, and we may need 1 more maneuver to qualify for even these.

-Cost: A slotted maneuver-granting item (maneuver level 1, 2, or 3) has a market value of 3000 gold.  For that much, I could buy a Warbeast Legendary Tiger and have 875 gold to spare!  (Mind you, a Legendary Tiger is cool, but probably inappropriate for us at this level.  A default one has over 300 HP!  If I got the Warbeast Legendary Tiger with the highest HD for 3000 gold, it would have over 500 HP!)

A maneuver-granter of level 6 or below costs 15K, and maneuvers of this level usually have 2 prerequisites.

A maneuver-granter of level 9 or below costs 45K, and maneuvers of this level usually have 3 to 5 prerequisites.

-Access: Martial adepts like our Ruby Knight Vindicator get access to their maneuvers sooner than any others, and knowledge of these maneuvers won't disappear in an antimagic field.  A Wizard18- one able to time stop, gate, and reshape reality to his whim with level 9 spells- can only use up to level 5 maneuvers IF he meets all other prereqs, usually another maneuver or two in the same discipline.

-Heroics: The level 2 Wizard spell heroics (Spell Compendium 113) already grants a Fighter bonus feat for 10 minutes per level, including Martial Stance or Martial Study for an extra stance or maneuver.  Having an item to continuously grant a maneuver makes a character more predictable and usually easier to DM.

-Spell Points: Casters are getting a massive ramp up in stamina with your spell point system.  At level 8, adding half my 24 INT at every level gives me 96 castable spell levels per day from INT alone compared to the meager 21 spell levels I get from spell slots.  That's 29 level 4 spells per day with some power left over.  I'd have to try to run out at that rate.  Each of these spells has the potential to end a fight.  See Evard's black tentacles, glitterdust, stinking cloud, and grease.

-Visibility: We use maneuver and stance cards, making it easy for someone to see which of our maneuvers are ready to use and their effects are printed on the cards.  Our spells are in a binder, requiring more digging.

-Cooldown Time: Each maneuver is usable once per minute by non-martial adepts, which is usually once per fight for anyone.  Only martial adepts can refresh maneuvers, and doing so requires an action for a Swordsage or Warblade, or drawing the right card for a Crusader.  (Time of Battle 40 lists maneuver recovery rules.)

-Attunement: Each item requires 24 hours to attune.  If we're in a hurry, I can't slip it on and start using it.

-It Works In Reverse: If we can use these maneuvers, so can your NPCs.

Also, a pure martial adept (or even creatures without class levels) can obtain an item to duplicate spell effects from cure light wounds, entangle, and shield all the way up to mass heal, gate and time stop.  Why not allow maneuvers on items?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 04:57:02 AM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Saxony

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2010, 05:49:25 AM »
You are exactly right that maneuver granting items should be allowed.

Maneuver granting items are really are not that powerful, especially since the user "must meet the prerequisites", meaning they must know other maneuvers to be able to use them. So for anyone who isn't already a martial adept, they are only useful for either low level maneuvers or Stone Dragon maneuvers (which are not powerful as a whole except for Mountain Hammer and its higher versions.). You are right in the fact that low level maneuvers are not very powerful, and the effects can easily be replicated.

In ANY case, the DM should allow the items on a maneuver by maneuver basis. Some maneuvers are not broken in the slightest. And in the way that you talk about your group, almost no maneuver would be broken in comparison to your power level.

Just in case you need some ideas ;):Two low level maneuvers are insanely powerful (White Raven Tactics allows for extra turns by tinkering with initiative, Iron Heart Surge ends any negative condition lasting more than one round that doesn't immobilize you(since you can't use maneuvers if immobilized)). Sudden Leap is pretty good for mobility, and if you roll high on your swift jump and only need to move in a straight line, it lets you move and Full Attack.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2010, 08:07:11 AM »
Just point out that spells are better than maneuvers of the same level, and you can pick up an eternal wand for less.
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Fluffles

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2010, 03:34:43 PM »
It can be broken. A minor Iron Heart Vest with Iron Heart Surge in it :p

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2010, 03:36:03 PM »
It can be broken. A minor Iron Heart Vest with Iron Heart Surge in it :p
Doesn't that require already having an iron heart manuever?
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Anklebite

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2010, 03:37:12 PM »
It can be broken. A minor Iron Heart Vest with Iron Heart Surge in it :p
Doesn't that require already having an iron heart manuever?

use item stacking rules. grab wall of blades and iron heart surge.

sadly, you can't use a magic item of IHS to escape an antimagic field.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2010, 04:47:08 PM »
Blah, why do people even have knee jerk reactions to the TOB?

omg the fighter doesn't die in one round and is more useful than a 5x5 wall that lets you tumble though it! and now you won't have to be an uber charger and either do nothing when you piss me off or kill everything before I get to use it should be the typical reactions to the TOB.
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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2010, 10:32:45 PM »
I don't recall all the particulars, but I know of a time when a player used the Ring of Flame maneuver to nuke a city. It was through an odd combination of a time-stop scroll and some questionable movement speed increase methods to get the speed. Long story short, he managed to somehow convince the DM that he could run 5 miles in a single round. Then, he circled the city and did 12d6 points of fire damage to everyone inside.

Now, it seems to me that a rational response would be to ban or nerf whatever it is that allows 26,400 feet of movement in a round. His response? Ban Tome of Battle.

Yeah, I don't understand it either.  :banghead

Bozwevial

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2010, 10:44:35 PM »
I don't recall all the particulars, but I know of a time when a player used the Ring of Flame maneuver to nuke a city. It was through an odd combination of a time-stop scroll and some questionable movement speed increase methods to get the speed. Long story short, he managed to somehow convince the DM that he could run 5 miles in a single round. Then, he circled the city and did 12d6 points of fire damage to everyone inside.

Now, it seems to me that a rational response would be to ban or nerf whatever it is that allows 26,400 feet of movement in a round. His response? Ban Tome of Battle.

Yeah, I don't understand it either.  :banghead

Chuck, eh? I'm not too surprised.

To be entirely fair, it's much easier to do that with magic. Better. Without expending a 9th level scroll.

Anklebite

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2010, 11:12:33 PM »
if you run a perfect circle around the equator with ring of flame, what happens?
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Akalsaris

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2010, 11:14:55 PM »
For 3K, those items are quite a "Steal" though.  Not over-powered, but very competitively priced.  If the DM is so fussy about it though, I don't see the big deal in not getting them.  There's a headband for 2K in the MIC that gets you your Concentration check to a save 1/day, for example.

Also, please don't ever use warbeast legendary tigers as examples for pricing things - the warbeast template is so borked that even candles of invocation look reasonably priced compared with it =P

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2010, 11:23:46 PM »
if you run a perfect circle around the equator with ring of flame, what happens?

Technically? You may cut the planet in half, if you deal enough damage in each square to sunder the stone.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Endarire

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 12:11:10 AM »
Quote from: The DM
I said no to manuever items, period. As for the spell points once again I said, calm down take a chill pill and wait till I have written something up offically for the group.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Havok4

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2010, 01:19:09 AM »
I don't recall all the particulars, but I know of a time when a player used the Ring of Flame maneuver to nuke a city. It was through an odd combination of a time-stop scroll and some questionable movement speed increase methods to get the speed. Long story short, he managed to somehow convince the DM that he could run 5 miles in a single round. Then, he circled the city and did 12d6 points of fire damage to everyone inside.

Now, it seems to me that a rational response would be to ban or nerf whatever it is that allows 26,400 feet of movement in a round. His response? Ban Tome of Battle.

Yeah, I don't understand it either.  :banghead

Chuck, eh? I'm not too surprised.

To be entirely fair, it's much easier to do that with magic. Better. Without expending a 9th level scroll.

Chuck does not really work anymore due to the CC errata unfortunately.

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2010, 01:20:58 AM »
Quote from: The DM
I said no to manuever items, period. As for the spell points once again I said, calm down take a chill pill and wait till I have written something up offically for the group.
"spell points"?

Your DM is being a jerk off, not much else to say. Ask her/him about specific cases. Just read out an example from the book and say "Can I have this?". I don't see anything wrong with Wolf Fang Strike or Steel Wind, for instance.
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Anklebite

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2010, 01:22:58 AM »
I don't recall all the particulars, but I know of a time when a player used the Ring of Flame maneuver to nuke a city. It was through an odd combination of a time-stop scroll and some questionable movement speed increase methods to get the speed. Long story short, he managed to somehow convince the DM that he could run 5 miles in a single round. Then, he circled the city and did 12d6 points of fire damage to everyone inside.

Now, it seems to me that a rational response would be to ban or nerf whatever it is that allows 26,400 feet of movement in a round. His response? Ban Tome of Battle.

Yeah, I don't understand it either.  :banghead

Chuck, eh? I'm not too surprised.

To be entirely fair, it's much easier to do that with magic. Better. Without expending a 9th level scroll.

Chuck does not really work anymore due to the CC errata unfortunately.

well, the original chuck may not, but the caster level monster derived in the true arcane dilettante thread can do it if he has a six-stacked item of setting sun.  :D
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Havok4

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2010, 01:31:01 AM »
I don't recall all the particulars, but I know of a time when a player used the Ring of Flame maneuver to nuke a city. It was through an odd combination of a time-stop scroll and some questionable movement speed increase methods to get the speed. Long story short, he managed to somehow convince the DM that he could run 5 miles in a single round. Then, he circled the city and did 12d6 points of fire damage to everyone inside.

Now, it seems to me that a rational response would be to ban or nerf whatever it is that allows 26,400 feet of movement in a round. His response? Ban Tome of Battle.

Yeah, I don't understand it either.  :banghead

Chuck, eh? I'm not too surprised.

To be entirely fair, it's much easier to do that with magic. Better. Without expending a 9th level scroll.

Chuck does not really work anymore due to the CC errata unfortunately.

well, the original chuck may not, but the caster level monster derived in the true arcane dilettante thread can do it if he has a six-stacked item of setting sun.  :D

This is true but the original chuck had a beautiful simplicity to it.

Anklebite

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2010, 01:33:00 AM »
I don't recall all the particulars, but I know of a time when a player used the Ring of Flame maneuver to nuke a city. It was through an odd combination of a time-stop scroll and some questionable movement speed increase methods to get the speed. Long story short, he managed to somehow convince the DM that he could run 5 miles in a single round. Then, he circled the city and did 12d6 points of fire damage to everyone inside.

Now, it seems to me that a rational response would be to ban or nerf whatever it is that allows 26,400 feet of movement in a round. His response? Ban Tome of Battle.

Yeah, I don't understand it either.  :banghead

Chuck, eh? I'm not too surprised.

To be entirely fair, it's much easier to do that with magic. Better. Without expending a 9th level scroll.

Chuck does not really work anymore due to the CC errata unfortunately.

well, the original chuck may not, but the caster level monster derived in the true arcane dilettante thread can do it if he has a six-stacked item of setting sun.  :D

This is true but the original chuck had a beautiful simplicity to it.
yeah, but at least us optimizers can say "fuck you wizards, we can still do it anyways!" and be correct.
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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2010, 02:16:24 AM »
Out of curiosity, could you use UMD to emulate having the prereqs? I don't think so, because having certain maneuvers doesn't seem like a class feature (as opposed to having maneuvers in general), but I might be wrong. If I am, that'd significantly boost the power of these items.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Maneuver-Granting Items Aren't All That Uber, Right?
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2010, 02:20:09 AM »
Out of curiosity, could you use UMD to emulate having the prereqs? I don't think so, because having certain maneuvers doesn't seem like a class feature (as opposed to having maneuvers in general), but I might be wrong. If I am, that'd significantly boost the power of these items.
I think you can. An in book example of UMD is a rogue faking a turn attempt. Not having Turn Undead, but using up an imaginary attempt.