Author Topic: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1  (Read 8042 times)

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JanusJones

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Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« on: June 17, 2008, 04:15:13 PM »
Just poking about in books today and came up with something lovely.

For this recipe, you will need the following ingredients:

Savage Species
Dragonlance Campaign Setting
Dragon Magic
Unearthed Arcana (or the d20 SRD, if you're cheap)

Yep, that's it!  We're cooking MINIMALIST-style here, people!

Step 1: Take 1 part Anthropomorphic Bat or Anthropomorphic Raven.  You may, if you wish, substitute any other flying beastie with a +0 LA, but since we're working with limited ingredients (just what you can buy at your local emporium), let's stick with the basics.

Step 2: Add one part flaws.  Yes, alas, you'll need at least ONE for this recipe.  I know a lot of folks think this is a bit of a short-cut, but there's simply no good way to make this recipe quick without adding one in.  Besides, no-one sees what you're doing in the kitchen anyhow - how are they going to know the difference?

Step 3: Pour the mix into a Dragonfire Adept mold and let sit. 

Step 4: Mix in, gradually, one part Flyby Attack.  This is the base of the flavor.

Step 5: Add Flyby Breath.  Now this is where the recipe really gets tricky (like a souffle or something).  You see, the trick is, Flyby Breath allows your DFA to breathe as a FREE ACTION, as long as he does nothing else but MOVE during the round.  The feat was clearly designed with normal dragons in mind - dragons who have a recharge time for their breath and thus would only be able to breathe ONCE in a round, regardless of what action it required.

Congratulations.  Your new baked good serves up a piping, fluffy helping of INFINITE DAMAGE at level 1.  If your enemy has no fire resistance or immunity and is within 30 feet of you when you take your action, you WIN.

Enjoy!

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2008, 04:30:41 PM »
*Evilgasm*

Have some Fu, good sir :P

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Ieniemienie

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 04:37:50 PM »
hmm.. I already had an orgasm with the DFA, but now I cant even move out of pleasure  :blush
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Straw_Man

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 05:07:07 PM »
Just poking about in books today and came up with something lovely.

For this recipe, you will need the following ingredients:

Savage Species
Dragonlance Campaign Setting
Dragon Magic
Unearthed Arcana (or the d20 SRD, if you're cheap)

Yep, that's it!  We're cooking MINIMALIST-style here, people!

Step 1: Take 1 part Anthropomorphic Bat or Anthropomorphic Raven.  You may, if you wish, substitute any other flying beastie with a +0 LA, but since we're working with limited ingredients (just what you can buy at your local emporium), let's stick with the basics.

Step 2: Add one part flaws.  Yes, alas, you'll need at least ONE for this recipe.  I know a lot of folks think this is a bit of a short-cut, but there's simply no good way to make this recipe quick without adding one in.  Besides, no-one sees what you're doing in the kitchen anyhow - how are they going to know the difference?

Step 3: Pour the mix into a Dragonfire Adept mold and let sit. 

Step 4: Mix in, gradually, one part Flyby Attack.  This is the base of the flavor.

Step 5: Add Flyby Breath.  Now this is where the recipe really gets tricky (like a souffle or something).  You see, the trick is, Flyby Breath allows your DFA to breathe as a FREE ACTION, as long as he does nothing else but MOVE during the round.  The feat was clearly designed with normal dragons in mind - dragons who have a recharge time for their breath and thus would only be able to breathe ONCE in a round, regardless of what action it required.

Congratulations.  Your new baked good serves up a piping, fluffy helping of INFINITE DAMAGE at level 1.  If your enemy has no fire resistance or immunity and is within 30 feet of you when you take your action, you WIN.

Enjoy!

Luvverly  :clap Aren't free actions DM adjudicated though. I need to use this in an Opt. 5 TO game sometime  :lol
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Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

DaveTheMagicWeasel

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 06:01:19 PM »
Meh

It's made quite clear that the number of free actions is limited by DM fiat, it's even recommended.

It's like the Sleight of Hand tricks to steal everything someone possesses in a single round - if a trick relies on my DM being dumber than my pet hamster (who's dead btw, RIP) then I just don't find it that impressive.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2008, 07:02:58 PM »
Sweeet.

Yeah, the whole Countable Free Actions vs. Totally Free Actions.
The closest I've ever seen this adjudicated by the rules, is what Dieties can do with skill checks.
A Demigod can make 2 DC 15 checks per round.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#automaticActions

Thing is, that's the only definition of countable free actions.
So why can't this work, because of DM Fiat.
So why *can* this work, because DM likes it.

At the very least, your reputation would get around, as being a Stone Hot Killah.
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Risada

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2008, 11:50:32 PM »
Nice..... but the DM fiat part blows it up badly....

Take some Fu too  :D

JanusJones

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 10:51:26 AM »
Bah.  In my experience, DM fiat can ruin anything.

Make something completely legal, then watch a DM who doesn't WANT it to work "explain" why it DOESN'T.  I wish they'd just have the stones to say "no - 'cuz I say no.  Yes, it works - nice find - but no."

Thanks for the Fu.  Wondering why no one was interested in the character who could lay a -48 penalty on an enemy save?   ???

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 10:55:33 AM »
Well to be fair, 'no because I said so' is invalid. Reasons however are not.
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JanusJones

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 12:08:17 PM »
"No because I said so" is rule 0 - and it's an honest move.  At least then I know where I stand.

"No because . . . <insert non-logical, 'assumption of intent'-based argument here>" is WAY more obnoxious.  Far too few people understand semantics, grammar, etc., and as a result argue against rule combinations they don't LIKE as though not liking them somehow made them ILLEGAL.  This gets me steamed.   :mad

But yes, an argument IS preferable . . . when it's actually logical, well-founded, and based on what is written in the rules.  When it isn't, I FAR prefer opinion - honestly and unapologetically stated opinion.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 12:13:57 PM »
Well when I see 'no because I said so' it immediately calls to mind power tripping DMs. Even if it's something legitimate (infinite damage at level 1) to shoot down.

When I see no because of *insert bull shit reason* it reads as exactly the same, except wasting time.

When I see no because of *insert logical reason* that's fair enough. Assuming something like that comes up in the first place, when it usually doesn't.

I think we're on the same page here.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
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ZeroSum

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 01:58:17 PM »
So how does "No, because it breaks the game." fit in as a reason?  In all honesty the other players are the ones that should be saying, "WTF?  That makes it very unfun for us."

skydragonknight

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 05:24:42 PM »
There's also "No, because a person can't breathe in and out infinite times in 6 seconds."

An argument not on the rules themselves, but on what the rules *represent* which is an actual living -breathing- character.

That would at least give you some validity(that you can breathe multiple times a round, maybe 10-15?) but keep the whole thing finite(a high 4 at 1st level and a normal 4 at higher levels).
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Straw_Man

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2008, 05:33:02 PM »

I'd do something like 1 breath every 10 feet moved. It's realistic as you have to be moving to use your breath for free. Makes sense?
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Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2008, 07:44:42 PM »

I'd do something like 1 breath every 10 feet moved. It's realistic as you have to be moving to use your breath for free. Makes sense?

Combine with Chuck.
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Straw_Man

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2008, 07:57:29 PM »

I'd do something like 1 breath every 10 feet moved. It's realistic as you have to be moving to use your breath for free. Makes sense?

Combine with Chuck.

You could yes, but I'm not sure what you'd be trying to prove? That you can break D&D, already a badly written & balanced system, to the point the GM has to just start banning stuff? As a GM, I appreciate TO esthetically, but in play  :nonono
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Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2008, 08:00:50 PM »
Last time I checked, even Zombies don't need to make a skill check DC of -4 , to move one 5' step.
So ... I think the average "no" DM is in trouble  :clap

Move 5'
Somatic component is a movement.
Some swift/immediate actions are, or can be, moves.

Somebody got the table in the DMG sitting around?
Free Actions table has to have something on it that involves move-ish movement.

And Chuck.
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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2008, 06:43:00 PM »
Good trick.

There's no reason to remove it though.

You can limit it or change it into one of two ways:

1) After the 1st breath you have to make a Con check; with a DC = to the Reflex save of your Breath Weapon, if you succeed you get an other breath off, you can keep making the Con Checks until you fail, then you're done for the round.

2) You can fire off your breath weapon once per round, it's a free action.

The second one seems very broken, but w/e, the character wants to breath fire all the bloody time, so let them. It's a compromise, and it's one thing that I've learned as a DM it's this: you can take almost everything that makes a potentially overpowered PC overpowered, and as long as you give them something that's similar they'll take it.

Sure their feat slots are taken up, but they got an ability which is pretty handy and is in line with what they wanted.

Seriously, people will take any sort of penalities if they really want to play a guy with grey skin and shark teeth; likewise, they'll settle for a CR 1/2 Gargoyle PC race (even if all it is is a +2 Con, +2 Nat armour; Flight spread out over 7-ish HD (like the Raptorians, Gliding, Flight based on Con Mod and then actual flying) and the other BS Gargoyle traits).
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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2008, 07:32:14 PM »
As a DM I would try one of two things:

1) Change to Swift action, which pretty much takes away a lot of the ownage.

2) Remind a player that yes, while there is no technical limit on free actions, it DOES say, right there in the SRD, that the DM gets a say on how many free actions a character can perform. In this case, since it's clearly an action meant to happen WHILE moving, I would limit it to ONE breath per move action a character takes. So a single move means one breath, a double move two breaths, and the second happens after half the distance moved.

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Re: Optimization Level 5 - Infinite Damage at Level 1
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2008, 09:19:09 PM »
Even at a DM fiat of 1 "free" breath per move as the feat intended, it's still a pretty sweet find for the DFA, esp. combined with entangling breath...