OOC Chat

[VennDygrem]

Should be public now. Funny, I could've sworn I set it when creating the sheet.

[RobbyPants]

Are you all set, or do you have anything left to buy?

[VennDygrem]

Actually, with hurl rock gone I'm trying to figure out what to do with my feats. The geomancer's class abilities are now 100% geared toward melee combat besides spellcasting, so there's more changes to the build than I thought there were. There's almost no reason for there to be 2 geomancers now, since the variety is gone. If I want to do ranged combat with a geomancer, I have to forego making use of some class features, and also forego the use of a shield. With the addition of a casting stat, I'm also more MAD than the other geomancer class, though I took care of that issue somewhat (I'm currently just not as capable in melee, though again I'm still unsure of that path).

[Flay Crimsonwind]

Actually, with hurl rock gone I'm trying to figure out what to do with my feats. The geomancer's class abilities are now 100% geared toward melee combat besides spellcasting, so there's more changes to the build than I thought there were. There's almost no reason for there to be 2 geomancers now, since the variety is gone. If I want to do ranged combat with a geomancer, I have to forego making use of some class features, and also forego the use of a shield. With the addition of a casting stat, I'm also more MAD than the other geomancer class, though I took care of that issue somewhat (I'm currently just not as capable in melee, though again I'm still unsure of that path).

This is why I took improved initiative as my one feat for the thing. Also consider I'm not trying to break the classes, but just play them as fun to see if they're balanced out-of-the-box, as it were. I think with the spellcasting variants, there's a lot narrower focus. In short, I'm agreeing with you Venn. Not necessarily a bad thing, but...

If you're not loving the alt geo, is there perhaps a more variable class? I'll forgo geo if you'd like, no problem at all with that.

[VennDygrem]

It's not that. The other geo just has a bit more variety in play style, so it's easier to have two different builds. I could try building one of the other classes if there's room for build-diversity in them, but otherwise I'm just stepping on people's toes. I'd rather step aside on this and let it be just the 4 classes being tested than to just be a fifth wheel (unless Robby feels like designing a class for a fifth element ). I'm already holding the playtest back as it is...

[Flay Crimsonwind]

It's not that. The other geo just has a bit more variety in play style, so it's easier to have two different builds. I could try building one of the other classes if there's room for build-diversity in them, but otherwise I'm just stepping on people's toes. I'd rather step aside on this and let it be just the 4 classes being tested than to just be a fifth wheel (unless Robby feels like designing a class for a fifth element ). I'm already holding the playtest back as it is...

It has to have a space armor feature, a few anti-undead tricks, maneuvers, and have a dark-side connection to the fashion/modeling industry. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Oh, and be a ginger, so no soul.

[RobbyPants]

Maybe there's a way to add something like hurl rock into the class.  I'm trying to think what melee stuff I could drop to replace it.  My first thought is the natural AC and/or DR class features, depending on the strength of the ability.


Here's a real tentative write-up:
Lose: Natural Armor Bonus at level 1 and Damage Reduction at level 2.  These abilities are gained at later levels, although the NA is one lower than the listed amount and the DR is 2 lower.
Gain: Hurl Rock (Su): As a standard action, you can create and throw a small rock as a ranged projectile attack with a range increment of 50 feet.  The rock deals 1d6 points of damage, plus your Charisma modifier (minimum +0).  This rock attack is affected by the Geomancer's Stone impact and Adaptive mineral abilities, despite it not being a melee weapon.  This stone is treated as magic for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.


I'm not sure how that looks.  Maybe it needs to lose more.  It has some pretty good long range potential, as it can fire beyond 50 feet, albeit with a -2 penalty per increment.  It can be modified via feats.  What do you think?

[VennDygrem]

I figured that something like hurl rock could probably replace the stone impact, or otherwise stone impact could affect projectiles with predominant stone features, too. Sling bullets can be made from stone, as can arrowheads. They're just more common in metal, much the same as the melee weapons are. Perhaps if it unbalances things, the bonus damage from stone impact could be reduced to d4s when applied to ranged weapons, though I'm not sure if that's necessary.

This change would allow a geomancer to focus on ranged weapons and not be 'punished' for it, so to speak.

I don't think they should lose the defensive bonuses. It's true that they wouldn't quite need them as much if they're not in melee combat, but they're still tough and ranged combatants do still get targeted for attacks. The DR and NA are both also low-level flavorful additions in tune with the 'tough as stone' notion, and besides, in my opinion ACF's should generally replace class features with something equivalent, ie: replacing something defensive with another defensive feature, offensive for offensive, utility for utility, etc.

[archangel.arcanis]

I would think that just having an ACF to trade the impact for an at will that can be hurled as a ranged attack would be sufficient. Instead of adding to your damage with a weapon it becomes the weapon instead. It will be useful for low levels but a 5d6 ranged attack will not be too helpful later, but by then he should be rocking the high level spells as well.

[RobbyPants]

The reason I picked the defensive abilities was because you could gain the ACF at level 1.  If I swap it for Stone Impact, you don't get it until level 3.

[VennDygrem]

That's a concern.

However, also keep in mind that hurl rock allows only for one rock projectile, while stone impact levels well because it applies to all melee attacks, which means at higher levels when iterative attacks come into play, it increases in usefulness, while hurl rock decreases. Applying Stone Impact to projectiles levels along with the melee equivalent attacks, though ranged weapons can be used to make more attacks in a round with the use of feats, which can be a concern.

@Robby: However, the melee geo doesn't get stone impact until level 3 either, so it's the same situation for both.

[RobbyPants]

So, lose Stone Impact, keep the defenses, and get Hurl Rock right at 1st level?  If it's weak enough at 1st level, it won't overpower anything.  It can start getting boosts at 3rd level.  I was thinking 1d6 damage every odd level, or something.

[VennDygrem]

I don't want anything getting unbalanced. The geomancer certainly seems more appropriately built for melee whereas the other Elemental Mages are more ranged. I'll defer to your judgement on this. I'm just saying I don't know if the geo even needs a ranged version.

[RobbyPants]

I see what you're getting at.

I'm not sure the other three classes are versatile enough to warrant an extra PC either.  Do you want to try some other similarly powered character side by side?

[archangel.arcanis]

I would like to point out we don't have infinite healing now so our hydro may end up spending all of their time fixing us if we aren't careful. I do think a 5th character of one of the normal classes would be a good check for us as well. If we are constantly outshined or outshining the normal character it will give us a reference point to work with.

[RobbyPants]

What sounds good?  A martial adept or psychic warrior or something?

[Sohala]

We are trying for basicly a warmage or dread necro right? Why not use one of them?

[archangel.arcanis]

all of the above suggestions. I was even thinking about suggesting something a bit bigger like the Spirit Shaman to provide solutions outside our lists and have a second healer.

[VennDygrem]

Well, if anything it should be a support class, something that doesn't innately outshine the classes but allows them to do their thing. Crusader might work, helping to soak up damage and heal the party through devoted spirit maneuvers, or otherwise just a cleric or spirit shaman or the like.

A warmage would be redundant. Dread necro doesn't really fit either, IMO, though they may be the classes being compared-to.

[archangel.arcanis]

beguiler so we have some trap capabilities and a face for interactions is another choice as well. Their capabilities should be comparable with what we have but have almost no overlap.