Author Topic: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant  (Read 17430 times)

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Saxony

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2010, 10:22:25 PM »
This isn't optimization; wrong forum. And some of the sick practices mentioned here are just begging for a lock. Of course if all one cares about is power then one ends up evil. This is not new.
I fail to see anything lock-worthy here.
Agreed. Your comment seems odd to me.

In any case, based off what the BG's talk about on their shows, this thread seems right up their alley.
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Paradox

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2010, 01:20:20 AM »
@Paradox
What if you raise intelligent undead?

Pretty sure warping a complete soul (as opposed to a fragment) for your convenience is analogous to the creation of mindless undead on high octane fuel.

Havok4

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2010, 01:22:00 AM »
Unless the subject was willing.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2010, 02:07:14 AM »
Unless the subject was willing.
If using mindrape to heal the ill of mental maladies, teach students about the wonders of the multiverse, and convert heathen peoples to The Burning Hate The Glorious God of the Sun is [Evil], and using mind seed to prevent someone's soul from being overwritten by another mind seed is ALSO [Evil] (despite being the ONLY way to save them), then purposefully creating sentient devourers of souls and life itself would be pretty much A Bad Thing.TM
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Havok4

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2010, 02:11:18 AM »
Unless the subject was willing.
If using mindrape to heal the ill of mental maladies, teach students about the wonders of the multiverse, and convert heathen peoples to The Burning Hate The Glorious God of the Sun is [Evil], then purposefully creating sentient devourers of souls and life itself would be pretty much A Bad Thing.TM

I was referring to the nightmare fuel described by paradox, not DnD morality.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2010, 02:13:26 AM »
convert heathen peoples to The Burning Hate The Glorious God of the Sun is [Evil]
Nice reference. That was one of my favorite threads EVAR.  :D
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kalaskaagathas

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2010, 04:01:33 AM »
True, general factionalism between alignments and even other interests is probably the biggest roadblock to evil dominance.

Consider that if one evil faction was gaining dominance not only would the "good" be trying to knock them down but also the other "evils" with other goals.

Competing interests is the most logical base for the balance I think.

I've seen a quote somewhere, might be here, might be GitP, to the end of 'Evil in DnD isn't about looking out for #1, it's also making sure #2 gets crushed'.  Which I think is basically what you said.  In being redundant, I mean to say, "I agree."

Senevri

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2010, 09:20:24 AM »
Paradox,
Completely disagree with most of your assumptions, mainly because elementals have both, a charisma score and an INT score, but...
My fourth assumption is that animating a dead body would require as much, if not more, intricate control over the form. Based on that, it would require the binding of something in a similar vein as an elemental is to a construct.  But placing an elemental into a body is very costly and creates a flesh golem.
This.
Your further assumptions would explain why 'Animate Dead' is evil.
However, a corpse is an object, and majority of undead are animated corpses.
Quote
Skeletons are the animated bones of the dead, mindless automatons that obey the orders of their evil masters.

A skeleton is seldom garbed in anything more than the rotting remnants of any clothing or armor it was wearing when slain. A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do. It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no initiative. Because of this limitation, its instructions must always be simple.

Quote
Zombies are corpses reanimated through dark and sinister magic.

Because of their utter lack of intelligence, the instructions given to a newly created zombie must be very simple.

Of course, reading this stricktly tells us skeletons only obey orders of _evil_ masters and that 'animate dead' is 'dark and sinister' magic.

I would like to note that Dark Is Not Evil.
Sinister... well, one of it's meanings is 'left-handed.' The word itself is just flavor.

Curiously, skeletons and zombies have a charisma score, meaning they have some desire to do something.

Quote

Okay, Libris Mortis, which should have been the first thing to look at, lists the following:

 - Evil spirits animating an empty container, able to re-awaken some of the personalities and memories stored in the body.
This would support the "evil" part of animating undead, as the necromancer calls an evil being to permanently dwell in the world, even
if strictly bound to the necromancer's command.
 -- In some scenarios of the above, the original spirit _might_ be trapped in the corpse with the evil spirit.
 - Suffusing the corpse with enough negative energy to animate it. This would be a neutral scenario.
 - Linking the corpse to Negative Energy Plane, and this link constantly draining the material world of energy, this flow animating the corpse. This would be another evil act, but roughly equal to leaving a decanter of endless water open and upside down.

These, really, are the options available. The neutral option is the one that is strictly speaking, supported by RAW... up to a point, the point being the EVIL tag in animating spells. Return to the Tomb of Horrors took the third view on the subject, mostly.

The third option would make animating the dead farmer a bad idea, as it's unlikely any ground he's worked on for any length of time would produce much of a harvest. On other hand, negative energy bursts, Inflict spells and such would implicate that negative energy IS in fact, an energy, not a void.

This.. makes the first option the most likely, actually. This makes the creation of the undead a slightly evil act ( especially from a fresh corpse, where it risks trapping the soul, ) but makes skeleton farmers basically acceptable, and roughly equal to using a tool whose creation required an evil act - any act _done_ with the tool itself carries no taint of it's creation.

Paradox

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2010, 10:24:58 AM »
Paradox,
Completely disagree with most of your assumptions, mainly because elementals have both, a charisma score and an INT score, but...
Doesn't make a deference, it's kind of like a talking dog in that respect. They aren't humanoid or mortal.

This.
Your further assumptions would explain why 'Animate Dead' is evil.
However, a corpse is an object, and majority of undead are animated corpses.
...
Of course, reading this [strictly] tells us skeletons only obey orders of _evil_ masters and that 'animate dead' is 'dark and sinister' magic.
I don't see how you can draw that conclusion


Curiously, skeletons and zombies have a charisma score, meaning they have some desire to do something.
Which supports my earlier assumption, I think.

Okay, Libris Mortis, which should have been the first thing to look at, lists the following:

 - Evil spirits animating an empty container, able to re-awaken some of the personalities and memories stored in the body.
This would support the "evil" part of animating undead, as the necromancer calls an evil being to permanently dwell in the world, even
if strictly bound to the necromancer's command.
 -- In some scenarios of the above, the original spirit _might_ be trapped in the corpse with the evil spirit.
 - Suffusing the corpse with enough negative energy to animate it. This would be a neutral scenario.
 - Linking the corpse to Negative Energy Plane, and this link constantly draining the material world of energy, this flow animating the corpse. This would be another evil act, but roughly equal to leaving a decanter of endless water open and upside down.

These, really, are the options available. The neutral option is the one that is strictly speaking, supported by RAW... up to a point, the point being the EVIL tag in animating spells. Return to the Tomb of Horrors took the third view on the subject, mostly.
Well, lets look at this.  The first option is evil, no doubt about that. The second option is evil as well, given the evil spirit clause.  I imply that negative energy is the source of the partial dead souls required to animate undead.  That is why the 'neutral option' is evil, according to my assumptions, which I admit could be dead wrong. I think you are wrong about the third option being analogous to leaving a DoEW open upside down.  Dealing with negative energy is evil because of the  willful manipulation and torturing a dead soul.

LargePrime

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2010, 12:18:59 PM »
Ayn Rand wrote a book to specifically counter the writings of 6000 years of human experience and writing.  She wrote a book with no observed truth in it.  But is it popular with fascists, as it was written to please them.

The observed truth is that the "Tribe" beats the individual.  Socialism wins.
I'm not arguing for or against her here. I'm just pointing out that your conclusion isn't one that is objectively or obviously true.
Which conclusion?
Back it up with more than just an "because I said so", if you want us to take it seriously. Or don't, because it is pretty much by definition an argument that can't be "proven", especially on something as... trivial... as a gaming message board.
Um, I, and others made assertions.  There are no 'proofs' here.
As you said, philosophers have been discussing these kinds of topics for some 6,000 years, and they still don't all agree, and almost certainly never will.
One does not get to quote Rand, and use philosophers in the same sentence.  Rand was a Fascist propagandist.  She had a political agenda from the start and does nothing in the pursuit of truth or reality.

There are plenty of Fascist philosophers.  And all show the inherent "Evil" nature in their arguments.  All of them are selfish and benefit the user to the detriment of others in the body politic.
And all good creatures create spawn, right?  It is the evil that feed off of these spawns.  In this way evil is the parasite and good is the host.  If so, then, by definition, the host is greater.
No, they don't spawn. They reproduce, but that is not the same thing at all. It takes a large amount of time and financial investment to create new "troops" in that way, and until they are matured, it creates a bunch of citizens that contribute nothing to the war effort while still consuming resources. It only takes a few seconds to animate a bunch of skeletons, and the dead far outnumber the living in any world, including our own.
So no... the living are at an extreme disadvantage when trying to raise armies as compared to "evil" necromancers (or wights, shadows, vampires, or other spawning undead). And every one of their number that falls becomes a potential "recruit" for the undead army.
But you did not answer the point. One is a parasite and one the host.  As to the number of dead, that's irrelevant.  The question is how many are animate-able?  Only a small slice of the dead.  Less in a culture that burns its dead.  Again you are avoiding the relevant points.
A comrade that shares your goals and desires, with which you hold common interest is in all ways more useful than unintelligent slave, or 'partnerships' with partners that will betray for there own advantage.  In this way good beats evil, or 'common benefit' beats 'selfishness'.
There are LOTS of examples of evil minions that don't even have the option to disagree with their master, much less turn on him. Not all of them are unintelligent either, but it hardly matters.
Perhaps you miss the point?  A legion of slaves is found to be less valuable to achievement than a handful of peers.

This point repeats in the "waste of resources" that is growing up.  How those experiences motivate resistance to the oncoming undead hordes is relevant, although not typically seen in this game.  It is seen in this thought experiment...
Given;
A) Evil is observed to be stronger than Good.
B) Evil has not conquered Good.

Must we conclude Evil must be full of FAIL?
So I assert that Good bands together more effectively than Evil.  Thus it behaves in a 'socialistic' manner.  Which leads to why animating the dead is evil.

Animating the dead reduces the value of labor  :lmao

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2010, 12:59:24 PM »
Ok... I think it is probably pointless to continue as we seem to be talking circles around each other instead of communicating... You also seem to have some kind of personal agenda. and are relying on using ad hominem attacks against any "philosophers" that say things you don't agree with, rather than trying to argue logically against their points of view, which makes it impossible to have any kind of rational discussion with you.

The point about parasite vs. host means nothing. I think we are starting from fundamentally different premises about what constitutes "victory" or "success" here. The criteria I'm using is complete and utter destruction of "the enemy". I am not arguing about who can build a more lasting and functional society, as obviously undead hordes and their necromantic rulers don't care about that, and they certainly wouldn't be good at it even if they did. They are quite good at killing living creatures though. And for my purposes I don't care if the undead are "parasites" doomed to ultimate failure because they killed their "host". That equals success, as far as I'm concerned. And it is something that certainly happens in real life parasite/host or disease/host relationships. It isn't a very successful evolutionary strategy, as both might die out in the long run (unless the parasite also has another host that it is less virulent against), but it still results in the death of the host species, which is what my criteria for victory has been in the entire discussion.
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Littha

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2010, 01:14:15 PM »
A) Evil is observed to be stronger than Good.
B) Evil has not conquered Good.

Must we conclude Evil must be full of FAIL?
So I assert that Good bands together more effectively than Evil.  Thus it behaves in a 'socialistic' manner.  Which leads to why animating the dead is evil.

Or Evil won and manipulated a whole society into one that thinks its good but does apparently evil acts. (Rampant consumerism, Deforestation etc)

Senevri

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2010, 02:23:37 PM »
Paradox,
Completely disagree with most of your assumptions, mainly because elementals have both, a charisma score and an INT score, but...
Doesn't make a deference, it's kind of like a talking dog in that respect. They aren't humanoid or mortal.
So it's a-ok to trap them in eternal torment. the larger elementals have IQIntelligence Score :P equal or higher to many humanoids. Keep in mind, a really retarded human may have an intelligence score of 3.

according to your argument, it would be okay to use Soylent Aasimar or Trolls.
Quote
This.
Your further assumptions would explain why 'Animate Dead' is evil.
However, a corpse is an object, and majority of undead are animated corpses.
...
Of course, reading this [strictly] tells us skeletons only obey orders of _evil_ masters and that 'animate dead' is 'dark and sinister' magic.
I don't see how you can draw that conclusion
Because skeletons obey orders of evil masters and zombies are created by dark and sinister magic. in SRD.

Or are you referring to how corpses are objects? That's them rules.

Quote
Curiously, skeletons and zombies have a charisma score, meaning they have some desire to do something.
Which supports my earlier assumption, I think.
somewhat, yes.
Quote
Okay, Libris Mortis, which should have been the first thing to look at, lists the following:

 - Evil spirits animating an empty container, able to re-awaken some of the personalities and memories stored in the body.
This would support the "evil" part of animating undead, as the necromancer calls an evil being to permanently dwell in the world, even
if strictly bound to the necromancer's command.
 -- In some scenarios of the above, the original spirit _might_ be trapped in the corpse with the evil spirit.
 - Suffusing the corpse with enough negative energy to animate it. This would be a neutral scenario.
 - Linking the corpse to Negative Energy Plane, and this link constantly draining the material world of energy, this flow animating the corpse. This would be another evil act, but roughly equal to leaving a decanter of endless water open and upside down.

These, really, are the options available. The neutral option is the one that is strictly speaking, supported by RAW... up to a point, the point being the EVIL tag in animating spells. Return to the Tomb of Horrors took the third view on the subject, mostly.
Well, lets look at this.  The first option is evil, no doubt about that. The second option is evil as well, given the evil spirit clause.  I imply that negative energy is the source of the partial dead souls required to animate undead.  That is why the 'neutral option' is evil, according to my assumptions, which I admit could be dead wrong. I think you are wrong about the third option being analogous to leaving a DoEW open upside down.  Dealing with negative energy is evil because of the  willful manipulation and torturing a dead soul.
Second is evil IF THE FIRST IS ALSO TRUE. If ONLY the second option applies ( in which case the corpse would be animated by negative energy elementals, ) then it's strictly neutral.

*sigh* Apparently enforced slavery of sentient beings isn't tag-EVIL, per se.... Of course, a lawful government strictly enforcing rules is a form of enforced slavery, so I can see how that is a grey enough area to leave in tag-NEUTRAL land.

You completely and entirely made up all that stuff about soul fragments and dead souls. In fact, where  - or why - did  you come up with the fact that *souls* could die in the first place? or are you just short-handing 'souls of the dead' which sounds similar but has a rather different meaning. Well, to me, at least, although I can see how that could be argued.

Now, while I think it's possible for souls to fragment, souls have little - in fact, mainly nothing - to do with negative energy. A near-limitless, albeit not unlimited amount of souls is constantly being born on the positive energy plane, and they enter their afterlives in various heavens and hells, for the most part. A soul fragmenting is a really rare event, and certainly unlikely to be involved in the common usages of 'animate dead' spell.

That being said, negative energy surely _could_ harm a soul, and necromancy _can_ manipulate a soul. However, spells that manipulate souls have for the most part nothing to do with undead or negative energy, and in fact 'Trap the Soul' is a CONJURATION spell. Which is sort of a WTF, seeing as how 'Magic Jar' is a Necromancy spell. O_o;

Agita

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2010, 02:37:35 PM »
Paradox,
Completely disagree with most of your assumptions, mainly because elementals have both, a charisma score and an INT score, but...
Doesn't make a deference, it's kind of like a talking dog in that respect. They aren't humanoid or mortal.
So it's a-ok to trap them in eternal torment. the larger elementals have IQ equal or higher to many humanoids. Keep in mind, a really retarded human may have an intelligence score of 3.
I'll just chime in with a tangent here because this is a pet peeve of mine. Int=IQ is really, really silly. Int measures obvective intelligence. IQ measures relative intelligence, that is, how intelligent you are compared to others of your gender, ethnicity, and region. An Orc with 8 Int has IQ 100 because 8 Int is the average for Orcs, just like a Black Ethergaunt with 30 Int has an IQ of 100 because 30 is the average Int score for Black Ethergaunts.[/pet peeve]

On negative energy being harmful: Yes, negative energy hurts you. So does fire. So does positive energy.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Solo

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #74 on: March 17, 2010, 02:39:19 PM »

Or Evil won and manipulated a whole society into one that thinks its good but does apparently evil acts. (Rampant consumerism, Deforestation etc)
And nationalized healthcare.

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #75 on: March 17, 2010, 03:10:50 PM »

Or Evil won and manipulated a whole society into one that thinks its good but does apparently evil acts. (Rampant consumerism, Deforestation etc)
And nationalized healthcare.
Not according to Switzerland. The US is another story, considering its track record.

Of course, privatized healthcare has been rather traumatic too, all things considered.

Of course, the only thing we Americans seem to be able to do correctly is make better things to kill people with. We're really good at that.
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kalaskaagathas

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #76 on: March 17, 2010, 03:36:37 PM »
Of course, the only thing we Americans seem to be able to do correctly is make better things to kill people with. We're really good at that.

So, the United States of America am the black mage?

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #77 on: March 17, 2010, 04:55:25 PM »
Of course, the only thing we Americans seem to be able to do correctly is make better things to kill people with. We're really good at that.

So, the United States of America am the black mage?

Even our puppet governments make the peoples fall down, sometimes.

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #78 on: March 17, 2010, 05:07:09 PM »

Or Evil won and manipulated a whole society into one that thinks its good but does apparently evil acts. (Rampant consumerism, Deforestation etc)
And nationalized healthcare.
Not according to Switzerland. The US is another story, considering its track record.

Of course, privatized healthcare has been rather traumatic too, all things considered.
This. Generally, if cutting corners leads to bad things, privatizing it is a bad idea (such as with all public services, like postal services or, yes, healthcare). The state isn't a profit-oriented company, so it doesn't have to cut corners to increase profit.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Hallack

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Re: Practicality Is Not Evil And I Shall Not Recant
« Reply #79 on: March 17, 2010, 05:22:55 PM »

Or Evil won and manipulated a whole society into one that thinks its good but does apparently evil acts. (Rampant consumerism, Deforestation etc)
And nationalized healthcare.
Not according to Switzerland. The US is another story, considering its track record.

Of course, privatized healthcare has been rather traumatic too, all things considered.
This. Generally, if cutting corners leads to bad things, privatizing it is a bad idea (such as with all public services, like postal services or, yes, healthcare). The state isn't a profit-oriented company, so it doesn't have to cut corners to increase profit.

Not really wanting to get into a political debate but I'm compelled to point out that the US's form of "privatized" healthcare is not a good indication of how well a real free market/ competitive system would work.  There is way too much market interference in form of regulations and subsidies to say what we have now equals failed private health care. (Note: I'm not saying what we have now is good.  Just saying that it may Suck for reasons other than 'free market/capitalism = fail.'

In regards to gov provided services and the greatness that comes from them being non-profit.... the gov may not have a profit motive per se but the bureaucrats certainly do have self interest in their own salaries and program budgets.  Sadly however they do not have the same profit motive to seek greater and greater efficiency.   Leaching off productive members of society for salary and program funding  is less likely to lend itself to more efficient use of capital/funds.

Also, Corners cut does not equal bad either (be it government or private corner cutting) as it could well be part of the process of discovering better methods.  But if it does not function well for the private it fails and either changes are made or the private looses ability to do business.  Those same inefficiencies in gov waste/corner cutting are much more likely to be prolonged or worse, have even more money thrown at it.

Crap, didn't mean to ramble on so.  :)
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