Author Topic: Illusions now available!  (Read 11225 times)

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Squirrelloid

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2008, 08:48:04 PM »
Ok, I've gotten some more replies (and my dialog is ongoing, I will post a full transcript when its done), and getting answers is like pulling teeth.  Really, I want to chat with a designer about what the hell the rules are supposed to be doing, but thanks to the wisdom of Andy Chambers that doesn't seem to be possible. 

However, I think I know why CustServe is annoying me so.  They're stuck trying to defend some ideal of pan-textual inerrancy where possible (and where it doesn't offend their sense of balance), and thus have accepted the Class Acts powers as written without question.  It just then becomes a matter of interpreting the PHB in a light which supports that view.  As the evidence for damage type X => keyword X is in an example, when asked what's up with the Class Acts powers they just say that example is meaningless.  In effect, my last response from CS basically said (paraphrased) 'page 55 is not rules text'.  I find that answer deeply unsatisfying, and even if it is not rules text, if it is actively wrong, *why is it in the PHB in the first place*?  But CS can't answer that question because they didn't write it and they didn't design the rules.

Now, for a rules system I'm not going to argue with an initial position of textual inerrancy.  But when a primary source (eg, the PHB) makes a claim that is contradicted by a secondary (splat) or tertiary (dragon) source, i'm going to side with the PHB, even if the claim is only made as an example.  Examples are important to rules (hence the weight of prior court decisions in legal cases).

The disparity in appropriate weight here is doubly apparent because the example in question was written by someone on the core design team, whereas the Class Acts article was not (editor =/= designer), and I hope the design team knows the system better than the Class Acts writer does.

So at the worst I vigorously disagree with CS's assumption that the Class Acts article is infallible.  (And things are only going to get worse as additional material gets published - this does not give me hope for the system maintaining some high design standard).
The ignorant shall fall to the squirrels. -Chip 4:2

Dan2

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2008, 09:11:34 PM »
An example can't be wrong.  An interpretation of what it is exemplifying can be wrong.  A statement that says it is exemplifying something when it does not can be wrong, but an example itself, can't be wrong.  (Much less actively wrong)

If I understand you correctly, you believe that the statement on pg 55 is an example of how all powers should be designed.

Custserv seems to be saying that the statement on pg 55 is an example of a guideline for power design or an example of a design decision.

The text itself isn't incorrect with regard to the class acts article, however an interpretation of what the example means can be.

Also, the text is not making a claim.  An example can't be contradicted, only re-interpreted.

I've already said that I'd love to see a rule like you propose implemented.  It would make things simpler and certainly help avoid future confusions/conflicts like this one.

PrecociousApprentice

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2008, 09:20:17 PM »
I intend to play as if this rule were cannon. The only value in keywords is to adjudicate interactions between the elements of the game. If there is a separate way for adjudicating the interactions, keywords become useless. I like the keywords. I think that any time that there are keywords in the rules text of a power, either damage or effect, I will interpret that to be a keyword for the type of power, and if there is no appropriate keyword at the top of the power, I will put it there.
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All at-wills are useful.
I beg to differ... All at-wills are useful...
Stop posting.

This is really mature. You, my friend, appear to be a jerk. I could be wrong, as all I have to go by is what you write, but as it stands, all you bring to these boards is flame. If anyone needs to stop posting, it is you.


Squirrelloid

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2008, 10:50:31 PM »
An example can't be wrong.  An interpretation of what it is exemplifying can be wrong.  A statement that says it is exemplifying something when it does not can be wrong, but an example itself, can't be wrong.  (Much less actively wrong)

If I understand you correctly, you believe that the statement on pg 55 is an example of how all powers should be designed.

Custserv seems to be saying that the statement on pg 55 is an example of a guideline for power design or an example of a design decision.

The text itself isn't incorrect with regard to the class acts article, however an interpretation of what the example means can be.

Also, the text is not making a claim.  An example can't be contradicted, only re-interpreted.

I've already said that I'd love to see a rule like you propose implemented.  It would make things simpler and certainly help avoid future confusions/conflicts like this one.

I guess my major point is that CS seems to be starting from a position of "The Class Acts Articles Can't Be Wrong", and that bugs me to no end because they diverge markedly in design from the PHB powers.

This mostly makes me hate Andy Chambers, because I really want to chat with a designer.
The ignorant shall fall to the squirrels. -Chip 4:2

Dan2

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2008, 11:09:11 PM »
It's a valid point to be focusing on.

If I thought that backing the Class Acts article was their primary/only reason for ruling the way they did, I'd certainly ignore their advice.  (You already know where I stand)

I'd recommend not allowing the powers, or playing it your way anyway...
I hesitate to say house rule (though that is what I mean) because it implies that you are breaking the rules to do it, which isn't really what's happening.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2008, 10:31:04 AM »
I think I'd let the Illusion powers have the Psychic powers ; on the other hand I wouldn't complain if a DM disagreed.

It's quite negligible compare to the latest crap about implements giving a keyword to all powers channeled through them.

Considering that these boards are a place where we can be a bit more bruising than The Forums That Shall Never Be Mentioned Again, I don't think he was out of line.
We have increased freedom here - is more aggressivity what we want out of it ? IMO there was enough bruising on the other board. Let's enjoy the swearing but not swear at each other...

In short, I agree with Straw_Man.

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By the way, PC?  Go re-read my post about correcting people's manners.  Maybe it'll sink in this time.
That's the first time I heard that and it seems rather arbitrary. Out of curiosity, where did you get it from ?
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lotofsnow

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2008, 03:50:03 PM »
So... how about them illusions?

Straw_Man

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2008, 04:23:15 PM »

Illusions.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Kuroimaken

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2008, 05:03:18 PM »
Yeah, Illusions. Shame they aren't as versatile as they used to be in 3e, huh?
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Straw_Man

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2008, 05:17:42 PM »

  It's a shame, yes. I wonder how their going to fix the 'illusion' descriptor since it's apparently not psychic damage.

  Someone said something incredibly astute earlier: the assumptions the articles are written with unerring insight into the game, and the PHB the source text is being interpreted by the article rather than the other way around.

  Because DDI is such a selling point with 4E, I wonder if we're going to have a lot more issues with this weak argument fallacy.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Kuroimaken

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2008, 11:18:38 PM »
Quote
  It's a shame, yes. I wonder how their going to fix the 'illusion' descriptor since it's apparently not psychic damage.

  Someone said something incredibly astute earlier: the assumptions the articles are written with unerring insight into the game, and the PHB the source text is being interpreted by the article rather than the other way around.

  Because DDI is such a selling point with 4E, I wonder if we're going to have a lot more issues with this weak argument fallacy.

The only way for that to happen would be if the articles were written by the game creators themselves (though that didn't save either Monte Cook's or Skip Williams' reputations...). Either that, or the article creators would have to be from a CO forum.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Meg

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2008, 04:25:16 PM »
Alright, I took the off topic stuff out.  I also "enabled recycling" so you can see what is deleted from posts in the garbage bin. 

I'm not nearly as overly concerned about everyone playing nice here as you will find on other boards.  I'm going by the assumption everyone is an adult and you can handle your own.  Don't get involved in a land war in Asia if you can't handle the consequences. 

The two exceptions are when one person is rude and its unwarranted which in turns hurts someone else for realsies or it distracts from the topic, which it clearly did here.

If you've got beef, have a Duel of Wits with someone.  Get it out and move on. 
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Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2008, 10:44:40 PM »
Illusory Ambush is better than Ray of Frost unless you intend to focus on cold spells.  -2 to attack, and according to what CustServe told me it gains the Psychic keyword, so Psychic Lock can be used with it to inflict a total of -4 to attack.  Pure gold, and relevant at every level.

Slow becomes less relevant at higher levels when many monsters have ranged attack options.

Here's a very important question.  Do penalties stack in 4e?  Can we have a party full of wizards with Illusory Ambush and give big -s to our enemies' attacks?

DemonLord57

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2008, 11:58:55 PM »
Illusory Ambush is better than Ray of Frost unless you intend to focus on cold spells.  -2 to attack, and according to what CustServe told me it gains the Psychic keyword, so Psychic Lock can be used with it to inflict a total of -4 to attack.  Pure gold, and relevant at every level.

Slow becomes less relevant at higher levels when many monsters have ranged attack options.

Here's a very important question.  Do penalties stack in 4e?  Can we have a party full of wizards with Illusory Ambush and give big -s to our enemies' attacks?

Not from the same power, no. (page 275)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 12:03:32 AM by DemonLord57 »

Kuroimaken

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2008, 07:03:27 AM »
Quote
Not from the same power, no. (page 275)
Huh, there goes my massive Starlock Will penalty-piling combo.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Squirrelloid

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2008, 09:18:35 AM »
*snicker* - Class Acts article got a small update in the full dragon pdf (apparently not changed in the Class Acts pdf yet).  Now they have the psychic keyword.  Yay, someone up there was paying attention!  (And seriously, wthell is CS smoking?  Couldn't they have told us this to begin with).  At least I'm glad I'm not crazy =)
The ignorant shall fall to the squirrels. -Chip 4:2

lotofsnow

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2008, 02:53:38 PM »
Squirrel, I don't think I can get there from work. Were there any other significant changes (like changing the first level encounter power from 2d8+Int damage to something more reasonable)?

Kuroimaken

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2008, 05:03:07 PM »
Quote
I hesitate to say house rule (though that is what I mean) because it implies that you are breaking the rules to do it, which isn't really what's happening.

House rules, in my view, are meant to enhance the fun of those involved as opposed to breaking the rules. As such, I have no problems with them. It does make arguing incredibly difficult, though, if you have to houserule the PHB every five pages...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Alpha

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2008, 08:52:22 PM »
Psychic keyword makes Psychic Lock suddenly mandatory for all Illusion mages  :D

Snizor

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Re: Illusions now available!
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2008, 09:18:02 PM »
Squirrel, I don't think I can get there from work. Were there any other significant changes (like changing the first level encounter power from 2d8+Int damage to something more reasonable)?
It's now 1d8+Int
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