Making the most of Thallherd: Sweatshop Optimization

[Lycanthromancer]

As for feats, Exceptional Artisan, Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Craft Universal Item, all come to mind. He's not going to see combat, he's strictly for making magic/psionic items and being a stable leadership base while my character is out doing 'stuff.' If gestalt then I'm definitely getting psicrystal affinity.

I'm pretty unfamiliar with Artificer's / hardcore item making, anything I'm missing?

Exceptional Artisan- Dedicated Wright is better and ~2000gp.  This is crap.
Extraordinary Artisan- Saves Gold, a scarce resource.  This is good.
Legendary Artisan- Saves XP, which is meh, by which I mean crap.

Might you consider a Chameleon?  A two level dip grants you a virtual feat, which allows you to have any crafting feat you need.  Which you only need till you activate your Dedicated wright, then you can start another item with another feat and another wright the next day.

Mostly apt, though saving XP is a good thing, since this means you also stretch out your crafting pool. Every little bit counts.

[bearsarebrown]

How useful saving XP is totally depends on how your DM hands it out. If he does it by the book, then spend that XP! Remember, it flows like a river.

But if the DM hands out XP chunks every once in awhile to everyone(like more DMs I know), then saving XP becomes worthwhile.

[Lycanthromancer]

Also remember that, as a psion/thrallherd he has access to psychic reformation, allowing him to swap out whatever feats he wants on his thrall, and he can even donate the power for an item (though the thrall can donate the crafting feats and XP).

Anyway, more effective XP means more items.

[Hijax]

Also remember that, as a psion/thrallherd he has access to psychic reformation, allowing him to swap out whatever feats he wants on his thrall, and he can even donate the power for an item (though the thrall can donate the crafting feats and XP).

Anyway, more effective XP means more items.

he ca also use feat leech to gain all the feats he needs from his believers. use metaconcert to use their powers.

[LargePrime]

Might you consider a Chameleon?  A two level dip grants you a virtual feat, which allows you to have any crafting feat you need.  Which you only need till you activate your Dedicated wright, then you can start another item with another feat and another wright the next day.

Mostly apt, though saving XP is a good thing, since this means you also stretch out your crafting pool. Every little bit counts.

This is a thrall right?  Wont the thrall level be so far behind that mostly the items they can make are weak?

What happens if your head thrall spends xp to make something, and then your "Leadership" score goes up?  Do they magically get XP?  Does a new thrall replace them?  Do you really need to worry about XP in either case?

psychic reformation requires you rebuild according to the rules, so Chameleon is better, as you can be 7th level with two 'need to be 6th level' crafting feats.

And feat leach only works on psionic or metapsionic feats, not item creation feats.  Now one can argue that psionic creation is better, but you are not going to have followers of high enough level to steal every feat you want from them.

And if you go full psionic crafting, your DM will need to grant some sort of dedicated wright that works for psionic crafters

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The nice thing about thralls is once you've drained out their tasty xp center you can just kill 'em and get some new ones.

[PhaedrusXY]

This is a thrall right?  Wont the thrall level be so far behind that mostly the items they can make are weak?

What happens if your head thrall spends xp to make something, and then your "Leadership" score goes up?  Do they magically get XP?  Does a new thrall replace them?  Do you really need to worry about XP in either case?

As TML said, you can just "throw them away" and get new ones. And multiple "casters" can work together to craft items. So you don't have to actually "borrow" his feats yourself. He just has to help you build whatever you want. As long as you yourself count as the crafter, you can use your own (superior) manifester level.

psychic reformation requires you rebuild according to the rules, so Chameleon is better, as you can be 7th level with two 'need to be 6th level' crafting feats.

X1/Psion 5 can have two of those feats, also.

And feat leach only works on psionic or metapsionic feats, not item creation feats.  Now one can argue that psionic creation is better, but you are not going to have followers of high enough level to steal every feat you want from them.

Yes, you can. Pretty much.

And if you go full psionic crafting, your DM will need to grant some sort of dedicated wright that works for psionic crafters

The standard one should work just fine due to transparency.

[Lycanthromancer]

The nice thing about thralls is once you've drained out their tasty xp center you can just kill 'em and get some new ones.

Better still is the fact that you can use the bodies after they're dead for other purposes, such as spell components and undead minions.

[LargePrime]

What happens if your head thrall spends xp to make something, and then your "Leadership" score goes up?  Do they magically get XP?  Does a new thrall replace them?  Do you really need to worry about XP in either case?

As TML said, you can just "throw them away" and get new ones.

So we agree that prolly mans0011s crafting thrall does not need/want Legendary Artisan?

And multiple "casters" can work together to craft items. So you don't have to actually "borrow" his feats yourself. He just has to help you build whatever you want. As long as you yourself count as the crafter, you can use your own (superior) manifester level.

I think mans0011 wanted the thrall to make things, not help HIM make things.

My point is that the thralls are going to lag in levels behind mans0011, right?  Thus the creation feats around mans0011's level are going to be out of reach?

psychic reformation requires you rebuild according to the rules, so Chameleon is better, as you can be 7th level with two 'need to be 6th level' crafting feats.

X1/Psion 5 can have two of those feats, also.

I think you misunderstand.  Given mans0011 artificer thrall is crafting, an Art X/cham 2 can reach more higher level creation feats than an Art X-3/Psion 5, right?

Yes, you can. Pretty much.

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is your link supposed to be showing me?

[KellKheraptis]

I think the purpose for the artificer thralls is that they can burn their huge craft reserve with impunity, only to be knifed and replaced by another disposable arty.  Basically the same as our usual thrallherd process, just speeds it up a bit having a supercrafter do the work.

[Havok4]

I think the purpose for the artificer thralls is that they can burn their huge craft reserve with impunity, only to be sacrificed for more crafting xp and replaced by another disposable arty.  Basically the same as our usual thrallherd process, just speeds it up a bit having a supercrafter do the work.

Fixed that.

[KellKheraptis]

I think the purpose for the artificer thralls is that they can burn their huge craft reserve with impunity, only to be sacrificed for more crafting xp and replaced by another disposable arty.  Basically the same as our usual thrallherd process, just speeds it up a bit having a supercrafter do the work.

Fixed that.

I figured that part went without saying

[LargePrime]

I think the purpose for the artificer thralls is that they can burn their huge craft reserve with impunity, only to be knifed and replaced by another disposable arty.  Basically the same as our usual thrallherd process, just speeds it up a bit having a supercrafter do the work.

Except the first post was about the thralls was about THEM doing the crafting...

[Lycanthromancer]

What you do is you make your thrall a masochist (see: BoVD) and make yourself some liquid pain.

[Bastian]

What you do is you make your thrall a masochist (see: BoVD) and make yourself some liquid pain.

The problem with liquid pain is that you can only make a small amount of it per person. Ambrosia is much better because there is no such limit.

[PhaedrusXY]

I think mans0011 wanted the thrall to make things, not help HIM make things.

Even if he is considered the crafter, there are ways to get someone else to pay the XP cost. So if the thrall and believers are providing the XP, the feats, etc, but the Thrallherd still gets to use his superior manifester level to determine the item(s) he can make... what is the difference, exactly?

My point is that the thralls are going to lag in levels behind mans0011, right?  Thus the creation feats around mans0011's level are going to be out of reach?

an Art X/cham 2 can reach more higher level creation feats than an Art X-3/Psion 5, right?

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is your link supposed to be showing me?

I was trying to suggest that your believers are enough to gain most of your desired crafting feats. You don't even need the thrall to take any but the highest level ones (or even any... if you just reformat yourself as needed).

That's what the character I linked to was supposed to demonstrate... I have most of the crafting feats I could want just from believers. And the Thrallherd can also just take the high level crafting feats himself, and then get rid of them via Psychic Reformation (which your disposable believers and thrall pay the XP cost for, via Metaconcert).

So no... I don't think there is much of a reason to "waste" your thrall on an artificer dedicated solely to crafting. You can easily get by without it as a Thrallherd. Of course, there is nothing wrong with having an artificer thrall crafting crap for you, and it is probably more palatable for some DMs than heavily abusing your minions like I am advocating. You're just giving up the ability to have a thrall that is designed for combat.

[Hijax]

Yes, you can. Pretty much.

Eddie is the most awesome character. Ever

[PhaedrusXY]

Yes, you can. Pretty much.

Eddie is the most awesome character. Ever

lol, thanks. He's a pain in the ass to play, though. Holy freakin' crap what a mountain of stuff to keep up with...

[Hijax]

Yes, you can. Pretty much.

Eddie is the most awesome character. Ever

lol, thanks. He's a pain in the ass to play, though. Holy freakin' crap what a mountain of stuff to keep up with...

which is why i never bother to actually use my followers/believers for anything. well, except sitting around in cities and selling spells for money to be charged into my massive overseas bank account.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yes, you can. Pretty much.

Eddie is the most awesome character. Ever

lol, thanks. He's a pain in the ass to play, though. Holy freakin' crap what a mountain of stuff to keep up with...

which is why i never bother to actually use my followers/believers for anything. well, except sitting around in cities and selling spells for money to be charged into my massive overseas bank account.

Assuming my DM ever let me actually take thrallherd (ie, not bloody likely), I'd use them for information gathering and infiltration, making money by selling the magical trinkets I found (at full price as a vendor, rather than half), and as disposable minions (generally by pulling in acceptable targets, such as undead, constructs, and critters that regenerate, such as trolls). Then again, a bunch of crusaders with the mob template (and all sharing the same maneuvers from Devoted Spirit and White Raven) would be quite useful, even at level 1...