Author Topic: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman  (Read 5143 times)

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kevin_video

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Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« on: March 11, 2010, 01:30:50 AM »
By comparison to a lot of other classes, especially Tome of Battle, the marshal just doesn't seem like it's able to stand up all that much. Especially with the Pathfinder upgrades to the core classes, the hexblade and knight being updated with extra abilities and a second strong save, and the new psionic classes that are going to be released this year for Pathfinder.

Would I be breaking the class by adding the PHB2 Adrenaline Burst to increments 6, 10, 13, and 17?

I'm also considering allowing the Dragon Shaman to get the Shamanic Invocation from Dragon Magic without it losing the draconic aura it's supposed to.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2010, 01:52:37 AM »
There was a homebrew Sublime Marshal variant on the Gleemax boards a while back. I'm trying to revive it in PDF form, though someone may have beat me to it on GiantITP.


The Adrenaline Surge class feature would be helpful, but don't have it replace their Grant Move Action ability (that ability is rather fun).

The Dragon Shaman would be much more playable if it could melee decently. Full BAB, maybe some natural weapon progression?


[spoiler][/spoiler]

kevin_video

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2010, 01:54:47 AM »
The Adrenaline Surge class feature would be helpful, but don't have it replace their Grant Move Action ability (that ability is rather fun).

The Dragon Shaman would be much more playable if it could melee decently. Full BAB, maybe some natural weapon progression?
Oh no, it's definitely not replacing it. It's just getting it as well, but with one less time per day (the replacing of Grant Move Action is 5/day).

It really would be, yes. I was actually quite surprised when I saw that the Dragon Shaman looked so weak by comparison to the Dragon Disciple, and now it looks incredibly weak by comparison to the Pathfinder version.
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snakeman830

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2010, 11:17:39 AM »
Sublime Way Marshall

For all your sweet leadership needs.
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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2010, 11:37:09 AM »
The Dragon Shaman would be much more playable if it could melee decently. Full BAB, maybe some natural weapon progression?
It's been a while since I've seen one in action, but their breath weapon is only usable every 1d4 rounds, right?  Given that, I think it'd be entirely reasonable to have the breath weapon do damage equal to your class level instead of half your class level.  Hell, even character level might work, given that you have to wait four levels to get it anyway (so it's not really a "dip").

Are there ways to increase the breath weapon to every round?
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Fluffles

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 11:55:15 AM »
The Dragon Shaman would be much more playable if it could melee decently. Full BAB, maybe some natural weapon progression?
It's been a while since I've seen one in action, but their breath weapon is only usable every 1d4 rounds, right?  Given that, I think it'd be entirely reasonable to have the breath weapon do damage equal to your class level instead of half your class level.  Hell, even character level might work, given that you have to wait four levels to get it anyway (so it's not really a "dip").

Are there ways to increase the breath weapon to every round?

Yup! Play a Dragon Fire Adept :P

kevin_video

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 12:01:20 PM »
Are there ways to increase the breath weapon to every round?
Normally, no. There are dragon feats that a character can take that'll lower the wait time by one round, but there are also feats that'll increase the time but also grant metamagic abilities to them (ie quickened, empowered, etc).
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carnivore

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 06:39:56 PM »
how about this:


Background Story: As a young child .... Sir Hubert, or Hugh as his friend call him, was tired of always being the Butt of Jokes. It seemed as if he was always bringing up the rear and never appreciated for his wide outlook on life. However as he matured, he started to see how he could really excell in life .... that was by Helping Others to accomplish things. He had a natural nack for helping out, and giving direction .... so he pursued his goal of becoming a Marshal. Here i present to you:


Sir Hubert Jass

Marshal 20
1/2 Fey Human(use LA buyoff) 1/2 Fey[spoiler]
Dex +2, Con -2, Wis +2, Cha +4
Fey Type: She becomes vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the fey type but is immune to effects that target her original type. For example, a half-fey/half-human would be subject to the extra damage from a fey bane sword, but she is immune to hold person because that spell affects only humanoids.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): the half-fey gains low-light vision.
Spell-Like Abilities: Starting at 1st level, a half-fey with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or better gains spell-like abilities. The exact abilities gained depend on the half-fey's character level and level in the template class, according to the following table. In each case, the caster level equals the half-fey's character level. Save DCs, where applicable, are Charisma-based (10 + spell level + half-fey's Cha modifier).
Level Spell-Like Abilities Gained
1st Charm person at will, hypnotism 1/day
1st Faerie fire or glitterdust 1/day
3rd Detect law 3/day
3rd Enthrall or sleep 1/day
5th Protection from law 3/day
7th Confusion or emotion 1/day
9th Eyebite or lesser geas 1/day
11th Dominate person or hold monster 1/day
13th Mass invisibility 1/day
15th Geas/quest or mass suggestion 1/day
17th Insanity or mass charm 1/day
19th Otto's irresistible dance 1/day

The character gains each spell-like ability as soon as she meets both qualifications for it. Spell-like abilities are cumulative, so a half-fey whose character level is 3rd has charm person at will, detect law 3/day, enthrall or sleep 1/day, faerie fire or glitterdust 1/day, hypnotism 1/day.

Immunity to Enchantments (Ex): a half-fey becomes immune to all spells and effects from the Enchantment school.
Wings (Ex): a half-fey grows insectlike wings (usually similar to those of a butterfly) and may use them to fly at up to twice her base land speed with good maneuverability.

[/spoiler]

Attributes(32pt buy):
16 Str(10 +6 Belt)
18 Dex(10 +2 Racial +6 Belt)
18 Con(14 -2 Racial +6 Belt)
26 Int(16 +4 inherent +6 Belt)
18 Wis(10 +2 Racial +6 Belt)
36 Cha(16 +4 Racial +5 levels +5 Inherent+6 Belt)
Note: would appear Visually to simply be a Human Male, with rugged good looks... due to Hat of Disguise

Bladerager Troll Combat Form (from Skin of Proteus)
34 Str(28 +6 Belt)
22 Dex(16 +6 Belt)
34 Con(28 +6 Belt)
26 Int(16 +4 inherent +6 Belt)
18 Wis(10 +2 Racial+6 Belt)
36 Cha(16 +4 Racial +5 levels +5 Inherent+6 Belt)

Bladerager Troll(Monster Manual 5) large giant, 6HD... +5 Natural Armor, 28 Str, 16 Dex, 28 Con he maintains this form constantly with Skin of Proteus .... but appears as a Normal Human

Feats:Marshal Auras:
Minor Auras: he can choose one of the following Auras and give a +13 circumstance Bonus to all Allies within 100'.This costs him nothing and is always active if he chooses.
Pick 1:
Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.
Determined Caster: Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance.
Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks. Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.
Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Motivate Wisdom: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.

Major Auras: He can give 2 Auras(Double Draconic Aura) per round and give a +4 circumstance Bonus for two auras of his choice to all Allies within 100'. This costs him nothing and is always active if he chooses.
Pick 2:
Motivate Ardor: Bonus on damage rolls.
Motivate Attack: Bonus on melee attack rolls.
Motivate Care: Bonus to Armor Class.
Resilient Troops: Bonus on all saves.
Steady Hand: Bonus on ranged attack rolls.

also he can Grant move action 5/day: a standard action, he may grant an extra move action to any or all of his allies within 100 feet (but not to himself). Each of the affected allies takes this extra move action immediately, acting in their current initiative order. This extra action does not affect the allies' initiative count; the round continues normally after the marshal's turn is over. (This may mean, for example, that an ally whose initiative count immediately follows the marshal's may get an extra move action from the marshal, followed directly by a full round worth of actions on the ally's turn.)

 in addition... he gives a +2 Morale Bonus to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks to all allies within 100' and All allies gain +2 Damage vs Flanked creatures

Skills[spoiler]
Skills: 215 Skill points(195 spent on Skills total)
Class Skills: (135 points spent) (
Skilled City dweller.. replace Ride with Tumble)
(Criminal Background adds Sleight of Hand and Open lock
Bluff 5 ranks
Diplomacy 23 ranks
Handle Animal 5 ranks
Intimidate 8 ranks
Knowledge(Arcana) 5 ranks
Knowledge(Architecture and engineering) 1 rank
Knowledge(Dungeoneering) 5 ranks
Knowledge(Geography) 1 rank
Knowledge(History) 1 rank
Knowledge(Local) 5 ranks
Knowledge(Nature) 1 rank
Knowledge(Psionics) 1 rank
Knowledge(Nobility and royalty) 5 ranks
Knowledge(Religion) 1 rank
Knowledge(The planes) 5 ranks
Listen 5 ranks
Open lock 12 ranks
Sense Motive 5 ranks
Slight of Hand 8 ranks
Speak Language 4 ranks
Spot 12 ranks
Survival 5 ranks
Tumble 12 ranks

Cross Class Skills: (60 skill points spent)
Autohypnosis 1 rank
Balance 5 ranks
Decipher Script 1 rank
Disable Device 1 rank
Gather Information 5 ranks
Heal 1 rank
Jump 5 ranks
Search 5 ranks
Spellcraft 1 rank
Use Magic Device 5 ranks

Skill Tricks
[spoiler] Skill Tricks:
20 points spent(10 tricks)
Never OutnumberedHealing Hands (CSco p087) Manipulation Heal: 5 ranks On a successful Stabilization check, you also heal the subject 1d6 hit-points.
Opening TapSudden Draw(CSco p089)Manipulation Sleight of Hand: 8 ranks,Feat: Quick Draw As an Immediate Action, you may draw a concealed weapon to make a Flat-Footed attack on a foe who has just generated an Attack-of-Opportunity.
Collector of Stories(CSco p085)Mental Know (any): 5 ranks Receive a +5 Competence bonus on trained Knowledge check to remember the special ability / vulnerability of a creature.
Listen to This(CSco p087)Mental Listen: 5 ranks On a successful Listen check, you can remember what you heard so well that you can replay it to others with enough accuracy that they can translate the language, identify the animal, etc. After 1 hour, the accuracy is lost.
Point It OutSpot the Weak PointBack on Your Feet(CSco p085)Movement Tumble: 12 ranks You can stand from being Prone as an Immediate Action that does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity.
Extreme LeapSlipping Past(CSco p089)Movement Escape Artist: 5 ranks, Tumble: 5 ranks As a Swift Action, you may ignore the movement cost & penalty on attack rolls & AC when squeezing through a Narrow Space until the start of your next turn.
[/spoiler][/spoiler]

 Equipment: there are some items that should be combined together as per Combining Magic Item rules in MIC.... assume that this is the case unless stated(if you see multiple hats, there is actually only one hat... with the combined Magic of several(i just didnt edit it yet)
238770gp +9 Inherent(9 Wishes cast by 17th lvl Wizard)
200000gp +6 Belt of Magnificense
51000gp Fast healing 3 in light brighter than Shadowy
Anti-Impact(+2,000 gp) Armor with the anti-impact quality is designed to cushion the blow from massive blunt traumas. Anti-impact armor doesn't give extra protection against weapon damage (beyond its AC bonus), but bludgeoning damage that affects all or most of the entire body (such as constriction and falling damage) is halved.
Easy Traveling(+1,500 gp) A suit of easy traveling armor makes overland movement simpler to its wearer. The wearer can carry up to a medium load as if it were a light load (ignoring the maximum Dexterity bonus, check penalty, and reduced speed normally incurred by a medium load). This applies only to the load carried by the character, not to any reduction in speed caused by the armor itself. In addition, the wearer is able to walk for up to 10 hours in a day before having to make Constitution checks to avoid taking nonlethal damage.[/spoiler]
618970gp spent+8150 .... 132880 left to spend
2500gp Lesser Crystal of Arrow deflection(+5 AC vs Ranged)
9205gp +1 Arrow Deflection Darkowood Buckler
500gp Restful Crystal
72000gp +1 Splitting Force Composite Longbow
24024go 4x Raptor Arrows
23000gp +1 Sacred Disarming Adamantine Halberd
Special weapon abilities
[spoiler]
Sacred : Upon command, a sacred weapon is sheathed in luminous positive energy. This energy does not harm the wielder unless it is undead, in which case it takes 1 point of Charisma damage per round it holds the weapon when it is so energized. The effect remains until another command is given. A sacred weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage to undead (or 2d6 against evil outsiders) on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the positive energy upon their ammunition. The weapon is also treated as being good-aligned (for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction) when sheathed in positive energy. Aura: Moderate conjuration, Caster Level: 7th, Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cure light wounds ,Price: +1 bonus

Disarming(CW): This weapon ability functions differently depending on whether it's applied to a melee weapon or a ranged weapon. If applied to a melee weapon, the disarming ability eliminates the opponent's bonuses for both weapon size and two-handed weapons. If applied to a ranged weapon, the disarming ability makes possible a disarm attack; you can shoot a weapon our of someone's hand. The relative weapon sizes don't matter for a ranged disarm attempt, but the defender gains a +4 bonus for wielding a weapon in two hands. Aura: Moderate transmutation ,Caster Level: 11th, Requirements: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinesis, Price: +2 bonus[/spoiler]

 The lesser Known Cousin of Sir Jass: [spoiler]
Sir William

Marshal 10/ Pyrokineticist 10

:cookie: if you get the reference ;) [/spoiler]

he can really help out any party.... since he can fill in for any need... and he boosts everyone at the same time what do you think


 :D

kevin_video

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 06:42:06 PM »
That's great if everything's allowed (including LA buyoff which it normally isn't around here -- where I live), and are already 20th level. I'm talking about surviving the campaign and making it to 20th.
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carnivore

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 06:53:30 PM »
you didnt specify

but a Marshal 20 is Plausible.... just very challenging

 :D

Anklebite

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 07:04:16 PM »
you forgot leadership. he needs a companion named Seymour. Seymour also was the ass end of every joke, due to his last name of Butts.
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carnivore

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 07:05:36 PM »
 :lmao ... again ... genius


 :D

Anklebite

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 07:07:33 PM »
:lmao ... again ... genius


 :D

I seem to have taken the fiendish flamewreath variant, for I truely seem to be on fire as of late.
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carnivore

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 07:09:00 PM »
you are also one of the few who have gotten the jokes embedded in the build  ;)

 :D


kevin_video

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2010, 08:11:20 PM »
you are also one of the few who have gotten the jokes embedded in the build  ;)

 :D
LET ME SHOW YOU SOMETHING!

He needs to be immortal, or have like a 50 CON. :lol
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Shadowhunter

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 08:44:05 PM »
I've always thought "just a few" modifications were in order for the Dragon Shaman to work properly.

Increase Aura Bonus to X+CHA, maximum bonus equal to class levels.
Discourage 1-lvl dip which would be brokenly good on any CHA-based build, keeping it balanced.

Set wings to develop earlier and progress them throughout the levels with increased aerial mobility.
Clumsy to Average to Good to perhaps Perfect.

Keep the medium BAB, something's gotta give and with the increase in Aura Bonus, your to hit should be fine.

Some kind of frightful presence would be useful.

Mixing around with Invocations and Breath Weapons really seems like the DFAs' schtick and natural weapons the Totemists. So not too much poking around there. But really, would be awesome with 2x Claw, Bite and Tail Slap.

Oh, and diversify the different abilities the dragons give you. Copper Dragon = Win whilst Red Dragon = Fail.


Hrrm... this gives me an idea for a Totemist/Dragon Shaman PrC of some sort.
This needs to be investigated.

*dives into splatbooks*
[Spoiler]
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snakeman830

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 09:13:20 PM »
Oh, and diversify the different abilities the dragons give you. Copper Dragon = Win whilst Red Dragon = Fail.
Too true.  Red needs a different ability.

Out of the other things, I only disagree with the natural attack routine.  Oh, and Double Draconic Aura should just be a bonus feat at 12th level, since every Dragon Shaman wants that feat.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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kevin_video

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 09:40:18 PM »
I don't know if anyone's seen these or not, but I found some alternate totems for other dragons that you don't see mentioned. Like epic ones.

http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/~frey/dnd/dragonshaman.html
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kevin_video

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Re: Adding to the Marshal class, and maybe Dragon Shaman
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 10:20:36 PM »
Don't mean to double post, but I thought I'd put up what the Dragon Disciple and new Sorcerer with dragonic bloodline has in comparison that the Dragon Shaman doesn't have, and probably should.

Firstly, the breath weapon. 10d6 at 20th level is laughable. A dragonborn has that much, and they're d8. The sorcerer and disciple do 1d6 per LEVEL. Not per two levels. That's gotta get changed.

HD for a dragon disciple is d12. Sorcerer is now d6 (PF). Having a d10 HD isn't bad, but maybe that could go up too. Even the dragonfire adept only has d8.

Natural attacks. The dragon shaman does not get this at all. That's just not right. They should have the same ability as the sorcerer where you grow claws that deal 1d4+STR damage a total of 3+CHA mod rounds per day (we can modify this in various ways) and at various level intervals they count magic to get past DR, and then later go up a progression for damage (1d6), then do +1d6 energy damage (as per the totem).

Skills. Lordy, lordy the poor dragon shaman has none. Between the two classes, they have more than twice as many, and that's including what they get for being the totem dragon. Even the half-dragon paragon's got more skills. That's terrible. Add in spot, listen, diplomacy, and fly, spellcraft, and more knowledges.

Lets give them those wings a little earlier too. The sorcerer gets them at 15th. The dragon disciple has the ability to actually turn INTO a dragon. Makes you kind of feel left out. They also get ability boosts. As well, those bonus feats aren't too shabby. A dragon shaman gets none of that. The natural armour for a dragon shaman is +3. It's +4 for the others.

And now while some people might go "But the dragonfire adept has it worse", look it more closely. Yeah, they have 9d6 for a breath weapon, but theirs have EFFECTS added to them, they have invocations, they have more skills and skill points, and their natural armour is higher. They have lower BAB, but their HD, saves, and skill points balance it out.

As it stands right now, I'd never be a full dragon shaman. I'd prestige into either Dragon Lord or Dragon Samurai. Those are cool to have.
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