Author Topic: The end of all "AntiMage" threads  (Read 83595 times)

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LargePrime

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #200 on: March 19, 2010, 05:36:39 PM »
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2010, 05:39:10 PM »
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
No it's not. It's blatant favoritism. I don't understand how that's not dead obvious. There are no predefined conditions, or even hints, at when a deity might block that spell. It is entirely up to DM whim. And if the whims of the DM determine the outcome of something, it is unfair and biased.

I don't think you can even use COP to it's fullest when it is PC vs. PC, or even PC "anti-mage" vs. NPC mage, though. The spell might be (nearly) Omniscient, but the DM isn't. The spell actually exceeds the DMs capacity to metagame, unless it is a PC wizard using it to defend against NPCs. In that case, the DM can just decide ahead of time how the NPCs are going to act, and answer based on that. But he can't predict the actions of a PC attacking the mage ahead of time.

So really it needs to be NPC anti-mage vs. PC/NPC mage.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 05:42:56 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #202 on: March 19, 2010, 05:43:04 PM »
I'll volunteer any of my wizard builds for this exercise, and give the BG CO/TO community full rights to equip as desired.  Hell, from the hip, here's one that can TBoS only better : Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5/Rainbow Servant 10.  Congrats, autopersist on all the broken spells that the TBoS uses, and you get the full run of Holy Word spells, only with all the goodness that is buffable arcane CL.  No save death/stun/daze with no chance of surprise, without even buffs, and one contingency says you eat it regardless at least once.  Thanks for playing!
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bearsarebrown

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #203 on: March 19, 2010, 05:43:33 PM »
TO wizards=lol
Sigh. He's casting it inside his own demiplane. From an Astral Projection with Mythals and Planar Bindings galor. And you don't auto fail on 1s except for saving throws and attack rolls. and you can take 10 anyways.

I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
If DM fiat counts as neutral then whatever, the wizard will still win. There are other divinations and plenty of other tricks.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #204 on: March 19, 2010, 05:46:36 PM »
I'll volunteer any of my wizard builds for this exercise, and give the BG CO/TO community full rights to equip as desired.  Hell, from the hip, here's one that can TBoS only better : Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5/Rainbow Servant 10.  Congrats, autopersist on all the broken spells that the TBoS uses, and you get the full run of Holy Word spells, only with all the goodness that is buffable arcane CL.  No save death/stun/daze with no chance of surprise, without even buffs, and one contingency says you eat it regardless at least once.  Thanks for playing!
In the original challenge, we actually restricted ourselves to either single classed wizards, or one that was a Wizard 10/Loremaster 10. They chose feats and spells and what-not outside the core, but we didn't want the actual prestige class abilities determining the outcome. It was supposed to be strictly based on the power of the wizard class itself, not potential wizard PrCs.

I also don't think any of them actually had Craft Contingent Spell, because if both the wizard and challenger have that shit, it gets intractably insane to try and figure that shit out, especially if they're both using Contact Other Plane to figure out each other's contingencies...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

LargePrime

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #205 on: March 19, 2010, 05:49:27 PM »
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
No it's not. It's blatant favoritism. I don't understand how that's not dead obvious. There are no predefined conditions, or even hints, at when a deity might block that spell.
There does not have to be.  The non caster is assumed to have done what blockes the spell.  It is not favoritism to assume THINGS have been done.  Does the wizard have spell components?  Of course!  Did the non caster block COP?  Of course!

It's not eve up to the DM!  Just do what it takes to block it, like pray at a temple or cast the appropriate spell.
I don't think you can even use COP to it's fullest when it is PC vs. PC, or even PC "anti-mage" vs. NPC mage, though. The spell might be (nearly) Omniscient, but the DM isn't. The spell actually exceeds the DMs capacity to metagame, unless it is a PC wizard using it to defend against NPCs. In that case, the DM can just decide ahead of time how the NPCs are going to act, and answer based on that. But he can't predict the actions of a PC attacking the mage ahead of time.

So really it needs to be NPC anti-mage vs. PC/NPC mage.
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters?  I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
If DM fiat counts as neutral then whatever, the wizard will still win. There are other divinations and plenty of other tricks.
If we are done with COP then we can move on.  I don't think all agree though.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 05:53:13 PM by LargePrime »

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #206 on: March 19, 2010, 05:53:52 PM »
I'll volunteer any of my wizard builds for this exercise, and give the BG CO/TO community full rights to equip as desired.  Hell, from the hip, here's one that can TBoS only better : Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5/Rainbow Servant 10.  Congrats, autopersist on all the broken spells that the TBoS uses, and you get the full run of Holy Word spells, only with all the goodness that is buffable arcane CL.  No save death/stun/daze with no chance of surprise, without even buffs, and one contingency says you eat it regardless at least once.  Thanks for playing!
In the original challenge, we actually restricted ourselves to either single classed wizards, or one that was a Wizard 10/Loremaster 10. They chose feats and spells and what-not outside the core, but we didn't want the actual prestige class abilities determining the outcome. It was supposed to be strictly based on the power of the wizard class itself, not potential wizard PrCs.

I also don't think any of them actually had Craft Contingent Spell, because if both the wizard and challenger have that shit, it gets intractably insane to try and figure that shit out, especially if they're both using Contact Other Plane to figure out each other's contingencies...

Even at Wizard 20 or Wizard 10/Loremaster 10, you're looking at one contingency, a second from Planar Touchstone, and a third from that scroll phylactery.  All XP free.  And if you're always in Planetar form/Solar form, you've still got Holy Word.  Hell, take Arcane Disciple and you've got it without shapeshifting cheese.  The trick thusly still works.  I only mentioned Rainbow Servant as a deliberate nerf from my usual choices of PrC, since if I want the Cleric list, I'll just turn into a Planetar and waste all it's slots.

And LargePrime, CoP works perfectly fine on a neutral playing field.  As a noncaster, you can block it all of once, and all of one additional time for every 5,000 XP you're willing to burn or scroll you're willing to UMD.  What does that cost again?  Also, any wizard worth his salt will ask around that, and eventually catch on to the fact a petty puny mortal is attempting to play god, and promptly give him a lesson in divinity he won't soon have the option of forgetting (enter unpleasant fate worse than just death here).
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Havok4

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #207 on: March 19, 2010, 05:55:43 PM »
There does not have to be.  The non caster is assumed to have done what blockes the spell.  It is not favoritism to assume THINGS have been done.  Does the wizard have spell components?  Of course!  Did the non caster block COP?  Of course!

How do you block COP without using DM fiat? If you can pray for divine intervention to block it with no expenditures of resources then the wizard can also pray to have it unblocked. If you can cast miracle to block it you are branching outside the stated powers of the spell leaving it up to DM arbitration and fiat what the limits are and if that avenue of optimization is open then the wizard can cast wish with a carefully worded contract to get even better results as he has all the time in the world and multiple geniuses to write the wish.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 05:59:45 PM by Havok4 »

LargePrime

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #208 on: March 19, 2010, 05:57:51 PM »
As a noncaster, you can block it all of once, and all of one additional time for every 5,000 XP you're willing to burn or scroll you're willing to UMD.
Why do you say it can only be blocked once?
There does not have to be.  The non caster is assumed to have done what blockes the spell.  It is not favoritism to assume THINGS have been done.  Does the wizard have spell components?  Of course!  Did the non caster block COP?  Of course!
How do you block COP without using DM Fiat? If you can pray for divine intervention to block it with no expenditures of resources then the wizard can also pray to have it unblocked.
Where does COP say it can be unblocked?

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #209 on: March 19, 2010, 06:00:55 PM »
Once from Planar Touchstone.

EDIT : Also, bear in mind the Wizard side is voluntarily taking a huge nerf in available PrC's.  The PrC makes the melee unless you're an initiator, and given absolute free reign and all things being equal, this thread is even more an exercise in futility for the beatstick and even more entertaining for the wizard.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 06:04:01 PM by KellKheraptis »
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LargePrime

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #210 on: March 19, 2010, 06:05:32 PM »
Once from Planar Touchstone.
As I read COP, once it is blocked, it is blocked.  If somebody files the form, a block is in place and it will not matter how many times you ask about items covered by the form.  And there is no known way to remove the block.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 06:08:30 PM by LargePrime »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #211 on: March 19, 2010, 06:08:40 PM »
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters?  I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
No, I'm saying that it is impossible to actually use the spell to its fullest potential if the guy attacking the mage is a PC. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't run it that way, and in fact the original challenge was set up so that the wizard was basically an NPC. He was statted fully ahead of time, and the attacker could actually know basically all of his tricks. You can still use the spell to devastating potential, just not to the same potential that an actual PC wizard could in a real game against NPCs. The spell is even more powerful in the hands of a PC than an NPC, without DM fiat/intervention.

Quote
If we are done with COP then we can move on.  I don't think all agree though.
:lol Oh no, we are not dismissing it that easily. Every way that has been put forth so far to block it has involved either house rules or DM whim. As written, there is no way for a PC to guarantee that he can block it. Only the DM (in the form of gods) has that power. And PCs don't get to direct the powers of gods. So yeah, the only way to block COP is through DM bias. If you were a PC wizard and the DM invoked the power of the gods to block your powers just because he felt like it (not because you actually went out and did something to piss off a god), wouldn't you think it was a bit unfair?

So no, I submit that there is no way within the rules as written for you to block COP. It is not within the power of a PC to do so. That's the end of the story as far as I'm concerned.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #212 on: March 19, 2010, 06:09:53 PM »
Where does COP say it can be unblocked?
Where do the rules say that a character can call down divine intervention to block it in the first place?

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #213 on: March 19, 2010, 06:38:19 PM »
Once from Planar Touchstone.
As I read COP, once it is blocked, it is blocked.  If somebody files the form, a block is in place and it will not matter how many times you ask about items covered by the form.  And there is no known way to remove the block.

And as I read it that's funny once.  You called your favor (assuming the god in question responds, which is, gee, DM FIAT), and the spell was blocked (again, DM FIAT), but there's nothing stopping a reiteration, let alone another being under said wizard's control (like I dunno, his army of sims of himself) from also using CoP.  Sorry Charlie, but any and all argument to prevent CoP fails in a neutral environment.
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Azrael

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #214 on: March 19, 2010, 06:41:54 PM »
Sorry this is kind of old, but I felt it needed to be said...


I don't disagree with that at all. Of course the spell is fucking broken. That's the whole point of bringing it up all the time. The spell is so fucking broken that if you use it as written, the goddamned wizard is untouchable.

I have to disagree, at least if you use your so called "infallible" questioning method.

What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.

ok, so...

1. bob
2. smith
3. ...

Now this is where your logic becomes unraveled...you forget one thing, there are plenty of builds out there with no weaknesses. You know just as well as anyone else that you can easily utilize spells/whatever in such a way to make your wizard completely invulnerable, therefore (especially if you utilize spells) your biggest weakness is dispelling/disjunction...

WELL CONGRATULATIONS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS! You just discovered what every wizard should already know about their enemy wizards! Dispelling, Disjunction, Antimagic Field...all of these are obvious mage-killers. Its a universal weakness...However just because its a "weakness" doesn't mean they haven't prepared for it. Therefore, you can know that these are weaknesses and attempt to use them against bob smith but it doesn't mean you wont get past his contingencies and every other little thing he has used to prepare against such occurrences.

4. Most wizards have multiple different ways to destroy other casters so even if they understand the "biggest" threat and how to counter it they will most likely have others. Honestly, if you were to get an accurate reading (at least if bob smith was one of my casters) you would probably get an answer like "craft contingent spell" or "celerity" which essentially means that my wizards specialize in action metamanagement in order to lock you out of your actions, always staying one action ahead of you so when you are out of potential actions (contingencies, celerity and the like) I will use one of my many abilities (most likely some kind of antimagic field lock) to take you out. So it really doesn't matter what answer you get...

5. Again, even if you get an accurate answer such as "you must have more actions" it doesn't mean you can actually accomplish it...with vague questions such as the ones you are asking (or even specific ones) there's really no way of knowing exactly which actions he will take and how many/what his exact contingencies are without essentially metagaming.

6. What day!?! Surely you must be joking...this must be done to the SECOND!

I mean, you can come back at me in the style of a -I use x contingency to counter your y ability- argument, but that only means that I just beat your infallible wizard because you didn't have the foresight to mention things like second as well as day in the first place...sure, you can revise your 6 steps now, after I pointed all this out to you (like many contingency arguments...which we basically agreed in another thread were pointless), but it only serves to prove that no matter what you come up with there is still a way around it...come up with another 6 steps, ill find a way around it. After all, there are universal ways of taking out casters like antimagic locks which only contingencies and blocking methods can prevent. How do you use contact other plane to discover just how many of these your enemy will have to counter yours?

I guess my point is this...

When you are facing a wizard opponent that manipulates actions themselves the only thing you can do is to attempt to manipulate actions more. Since contact other plane can only make you aware that they are going to do it its up to you to be smarter than the other player/DM and hope to god you can manage your actions more effectively than them

I mean sure, we're getting into TO here, but where do you draw the line? The only limit on the power of the wizard is literally the DM and his house rules/fiat.

Here's another point I would like to make...

You're right, it is TO...but why is that playable? Once you get into TO the character no longer becomes playable in a campaign. If your wizard is sitting on a demiplane while other things do his dirty work then your character needs to be taken out of the campaign because he is no longer playable (unless its that kind of a campaign, in which case its really the DMs fault in the first place). in order to play in a dungeons and dragons game you have to play your character as part of some form of group, your character cannot just sit there in another plane...you're no longer playing it. You can say, "oh I'm playing his minions, therefore I'm playing him," but unless its that kind of campaign then why would your DM allow that kind of shit in the first place...no...in 99% of the D&D games out there you need to play your character in a party so these shenanigans are nigh impossible.

So once you get into the realm of TO its no longer worth talking about...its pun pun...it exists, that's all...good for you, you spent all this time on something you will never get to play. When I optimize I try to optimize with the premise that the character is able to exist in the party system. Now, I agree, even within the party system wizards are unbeatable, except by other wizards...you don't even need to use contact other plane and like you said, the other wizard can just use contact other plane as well which makes it needlessly complicated.

So it doesn't really take a DM fiat to beat a caster using it...the caster (as a PC) using it never existed in the first place because hes unplayable.


EDIT

I submit it is perfectly neutral for a DM to suggest that in this epic conflict the patron god of either side has filed form COPBLOCK101 for anything regarding this conflict.
No it's not. It's blatant favoritism. I don't understand how that's not dead obvious. There are no predefined conditions, or even hints, at when a deity might block that spell. It is entirely up to DM whim. And if the whims of the DM determine the outcome of something, it is unfair and biased.

I don't think you can even use COP to it's fullest when it is PC vs. PC, or even PC "anti-mage" vs. NPC mage, though. The spell might be (nearly) Omniscient, but the DM isn't. The spell actually exceeds the DMs capacity to metagame, unless it is a PC wizard using it to defend against NPCs. In that case, the DM can just decide ahead of time how the NPCs are going to act, and answer based on that. But he can't predict the actions of a PC attacking the mage ahead of time.

So really it needs to be NPC anti-mage vs. PC/NPC mage.

Ah, yes...didn't read this. We are basically in agreement on some of this then.
 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 06:49:54 PM by Azrael »

LargePrime

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #215 on: March 19, 2010, 06:49:30 PM »
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters?  I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
No, I'm saying that it is impossible to actually use the spell to its fullest potential if the guy attacking the mage is a PC. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't run it that way, and in fact the original challenge was set up so that the wizard was basically an NPC. He was statted fully ahead of time, and the attacker could actually know basically all of his tricks. You can still use the spell to devastating potential, just not to the same potential that an actual PC wizard could in a real game against NPCs. The spell is even more powerful in the hands of a PC than an NPC, without DM fiat/intervention.
So your assumptions are slanted to getting the most out of the wizards abilities, not the non casters?  I see a little DM fiat BS right here.
If we are done with COP then we can move on.  I don't think all agree though.
:lol Oh no, we are not dismissing it that easily.
Ya I was being funny
Quote
Every way that has been put forth so far to block it has involved either house rules or DM whim. As written, there is no way for a PC to guarantee that he can block it.  Only the DM (in the form of gods) has that power.
Gonna put this with this
Where do the rules say that a character can call down divine intervention to block it in the first place?
So you both agree there are no rules for unblocking, right?  So now all we have to figure out what it takes for a player to exploit "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces."  It is not as if the cost of such a block is high.  Some have suggested Miracle.  Perhaps a Gate to trade with a "force" that can file the paperwork.  Winning a service from an serviceable entity.  An assassination of said Wizard might be viewed favorably by the god of such an act.  Have you no suggestions for what would be a fair price?
There are plenty of cases and builds where favors are assumed done.  But just not for the "Not A Wizard"?

If PunPun is assumed to find what is needed can we not assume others can to?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #216 on: March 19, 2010, 06:50:38 PM »
I have to disagree, at least if you use your so called "infallible" questioning method.

What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.
I never even once claimed anything remotely close to that set of questions being infallible. In fact, I said I just came up with them in like 5 minutes off the top of my head, and that I was sure that a wizard with godlike (and even better than most D&D gods) intelligence could come up with a lot better questions. In fact, other posters have came up with MUCH more sophisticated questioning methods.

And the rest of your entire post is about wizard vs. wizard, which has nothing to do with the discussion going on here at all, or with the series of threads we are referring back to. So good job missing the whole point, and ranting about a tangent.

And I have seen few... I might go so far as to say no... builds that have no weaknesses at all. Care to post one?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 06:52:14 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #217 on: March 19, 2010, 06:51:35 PM »
You're not quoting properly, Mr. Hitler.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 07:02:58 PM by Solo »

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #218 on: March 19, 2010, 06:52:46 PM »
You're not quoting properly, Mr. Hitler.
Godwined, eh?  ??? :lol
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Agita

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #219 on: March 19, 2010, 06:53:50 PM »
You're not quoting properly, Mr. Hitler.
Aaand here's our mandatory Godwin. All right folks, we can all go home now.

Unless you want to wait for a comparison involving an inverse relationship between roleplaying and optimization.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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