Author Topic: The end of all "AntiMage" threads  (Read 83584 times)

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Phoenix00

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2010, 02:54:27 AM »
Encounter Level 9
3 six headed hydras and a level 5 wizard. (each of the 4 monsters is cr 5)

The party is attacking a major stronghold of an enemy mage.  They bust down the door and stumble onto the room and find 3 hydras.  They do not find the mage for he has cast invisibility before hand.

So the party tries to attack the hydras, and the hydras try to attack the party.  All goes according to plan, until one of the party spellcasters tries to cast a spell.  This is when the enemy mage attacks.

Instead of trying to attack the party directly the enemy mage is smart and uses battlefield control.  He stays invisible until he is ready, he does not even attack when it is his turn (for if he does it too early the mages may do an immediate action to avoid his effect), instead he readies an action to cast the almighty dimension step.

When the party mage tries to cast a spell, the dimension step activates teleporting the hydras right next to the mage before he completes the spell.

Oh did I mention that the hydras have custom feats due to magical experimentation.  They have Combat Reflexes (bonus), Mage Slayer, Blind Fight, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection (in that order).  Note that this is two feats too many, well in my mind what is good for the goose is good for the gaffer if your pcs play with flaws than monsters will also play with flaws. (houserule I know)

If the spell is not a swift action spell, than the mage promptly dies due to him now provoking an attack of opportunity and thus is attacked by at least 1 hydra six times.  He doesn't get to cast defensively due to mage slayer, and he loses any miss chance buffs (he does not lose ac buffs for the hydra has to attack and not do an AoO for that).

If the spell is a swift action spell (and the enemy mage decided to unleash his readied action on a swift action spell) than the party mage has very limited options for if he does anything traditional then he generates an AoO and thus is dead.  He can 5ft step but he is still in the range of the hydra (15ft range).  He can try withdrawling but since the hydra has a range of 15ft his first square may be safe from an AoO but his second and third square are not and thus he is dead if he tries withdrawling.  His only option is doing a swift action spell and hope that saves his butt.

After casting said spell the mage is still invisible since he didn't attack directly, so he can repeat this tactic for the next round, perform another spell, or run away.

Phoenix00

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2010, 02:59:44 AM »
sadly, none of that stops swift action spells. so, if they have a quickened "fuck you" spell(if core only), or have something like greater mirror image ready, you are still kinda screwed.
While AoO don't work on swift action spells, readied actions do work.  You can ready an action to act for swift action spells.  Your action goes off before the enemy complete the spell.  If your action is an ranged attack/direct damage ability/or another spell (and not something like a teleport) then the mage doesn't get his Greater Mirror Image or F you spell for your attack prevented him from casting his spell due to the concentration check.

If your action was a teleport next to the enemy and then have him die due to AoO caused by casting the spell (and you probably have the mage slayer line of feats so he can't cast defensively) sorry but the swift action spell gets to be cast.

KellKheraptis

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2010, 03:41:29 AM »
Proper paranoid Batman mages have contingencies for these exact tactics, and depending on the bastard level of the mage, suitably appropriate and insidious countermeasures.  Personally I'm fond of taking that free 5' step after a free action to fall prone, with the contingency in effect being a spell giving earth glide (get creative...the easiest answer starts at 2nd level, scaling upwards to 9th).  Once properly away from immediate danger, a strategic reposition can bring the enemy into focus to be burned to death.  Also, see invisibility constantly from permanency isn't exactly unheard of by level 9, nor is a Ring of Spell-Battle.
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Phoenix00

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2010, 04:38:54 AM »
Proper paranoid Batman mages have contingencies for these exact tactics, and depending on the bastard level of the mage, suitably appropriate and insidious countermeasures.  Personally I'm fond of taking that free 5' step after a free action to fall prone, with the contingency in effect being a spell giving earth glide (get creative...the easiest answer starts at 2nd level, scaling upwards to 9th).  Once properly away from immediate danger, a strategic reposition can bring the enemy into focus to be burned to death.  Also, see invisibility constantly from permanency isn't exactly unheard of by level 9, nor is a Ring of Spell-Battle.

You can't take the spell contigency at level 9 without shenanigans
And many dms won't let you use items and other similar things that are not "integral" to your character to boost your caster level to qualify for feats, thus there is a good chance you don't have craft contingent spell.

What other ways of get contingencies are you thinking of?

Also relying on craft contingent spell is dangerous to your wealth by level due to things such as dispelling traps, wall of dispel magic, and enemy casters.  You need to use your normal contingency (from the spell) to protect your more expensive contingencies.

--------

Now I do like your fall prone for earth glide, it is just flavorful and is a great mental image.

Phoenix00

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2010, 04:48:25 AM »
Oh instead of casting invisibility, a potion of invisibility would do the same effect but not be casting a spell and thus activate a ring of spell battle.

Or you can just use other means of remaining hidden (such as a good hide modifer) and not even rely on invisibility, and even if invisibility alerts the party spellcaster that there are mages about it does not tell them where they are.

Littha

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2010, 04:49:18 AM »
Edit: Crap wrong thread...

Brainpiercing

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2010, 10:22:54 AM »
Duh... the answer is obvious: The perfect anti-Wizard is called... A CLERIC....

Sorta....

well...

But factually, it's the Hagunemnon, from the ELH: You take the 100' EX AMF of the Colossus, then the Ex disintegrating touch of the Blackball, the Ex magic immunity from the Demilich, and the Ex Planar Travel effects also from the Blackball. You already have Regeneration 50, without a specification of what deals normal damage, so that non-magical telekinesed items will have a hard killing you. Now you just teleport next to the enemy mage, or on top of him, and wait until he fails a fort save.
Granted... Joe BSF might also feel that this isn't a fair fight, but.... you can't have everything, right?

Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2010, 10:41:10 AM »
Ok, if we enter epic monsters, i sorta think i'll say this: deities.

even noncaster deities are total badasses, with a ton of bonuses, SLAs and a lot of crap. but here's the real kicker:  greater deities know ANYTHING that will happen related to their portfolio one week in advance. kord, the deity of battle, is f*cking damn sure to know that there will be a major battle between him and an obnoxious mortal spellcaster who couldn't bother to die. And the details. in short, he knows EVERYTHING you will do, he automatically wins initiative(or gets a surprise round. cant remember), so he can beat teh shit out of you before you can act, he knows which buffs you have up so he can surpass them.

Now, if you say deities are broken, the i'll say yeah. so is effing casting.
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Anklebite

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2010, 12:16:05 PM »
my sublime chord caster level abuse character has enough room for a level of nar demonbinder, and the extra +casting from ultimate magus can be reshuffled to that.


fuck you kord. enjoy a caster level 94 blasphemy.
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Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2010, 01:30:12 PM »
my sublime chord caster level abuse character has enough room for a level of nar demonbinder, and the extra +casting from ultimate magus can be reshuffled to that.


fuck you kord. enjoy a caster level 94 blasphemy.

remember, spell immunity.
also, i wonder if it would be too much to repick his feats and SDA's. because DAMN he's badly built. if so, life and death: No save, just crydie with no way of protection.
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Anklebite

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2010, 02:05:52 PM »
my sublime chord caster level abuse character has enough room for a level of nar demonbinder, and the extra +casting from ultimate magus can be reshuffled to that.


fuck you kord. enjoy a caster level 94 blasphemy.

remember, spell immunity.
also, i wonder if it would be too much to repick his feats and SDA's. because DAMN he's badly built. if so, life and death: No save, just crydie with no way of protection.
don't make me find out a way to add a level of dweomerkeeper to kell's rewrite of my build. I will use an even higher CL supernatural blasphemy!

sadly, spell immunity only works on things that allow spell resistance.

otherwise, greater rod of quickening MDJ + blasphemy also works.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2010, 02:15:54 PM »

sadly, spell immunity only works on things that allow spell resistance.

otherwise, greater rod of quickening MDJ + blasphemy also works.

Not by RAW, though, IIRC...

Anklebite

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2010, 02:25:26 PM »

sadly, spell immunity only works on things that allow spell resistance.

otherwise, greater rod of quickening MDJ + blasphemy also works.

Not by RAW, though, IIRC...
why is that?
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LunaticsLament

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2010, 02:50:36 PM »
Proper paranoid Batman mages have contingencies for these exact tactics, and depending on the bastard level of the mage, suitably appropriate and insidious countermeasures.  Personally I'm fond of taking that free 5' step after a free action to fall prone, with the contingency in effect being a spell giving earth glide (get creative...the easiest answer starts at 2nd level, scaling upwards to 9th).  Once properly away from immediate danger, a strategic reposition can bring the enemy into focus to be burned to death.  Also, see invisibility constantly from permanency isn't exactly unheard of by level 9, nor is a Ring of Spell-Battle.

You can't take the spell contigency at level 9 without shenanigans
And many dms won't let you use items and other similar things that are not "integral" to your character to boost your caster level to qualify for feats, thus there is a good chance you don't have craft contingent spell.

What other ways of get contingencies are you thinking of?

Also relying on craft contingent spell is dangerous to your wealth by level due to things such as dispelling traps, wall of dispel magic, and enemy casters.  You need to use your normal contingency (from the spell) to protect your more expensive contingencies.

--------

Now I do like your fall prone for earth glide, it is just flavorful and is a great mental image.

Imbue Gem from Magic of Faerun would be an excellent way around not getting Contingency spell.
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juton

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2010, 03:19:02 PM »
Really, it all starts with becoming immune to divinations, especially Contact other Plane. Depending on how you interpret the rules, the god of X can see you doing X, any mortal magic you use to obscure yourself doesn't work against a god. Since contact other plane doesn't target you, but puts you in communication with someone who can scry you I don't know of any RAW defenses.

tl;dr, Ban Contact other Plane, and ban Craft Contingent spell while you're at it.

Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2010, 03:27:20 PM »
my sublime chord caster level abuse character has enough room for a level of nar demonbinder, and the extra +casting from ultimate magus can be reshuffled to that.


fuck you kord. enjoy a caster level 94 blasphemy.

remember, spell immunity.
also, i wonder if it would be too much to repick his feats and SDA's. because DAMN he's badly built. if so, life and death: No save, just crydie with no way of protection.
don't make me find out a way to add a level of dweomerkeeper to kell's rewrite of my build. I will use an even higher CL supernatural blasphemy!

sadly, spell immunity only works on things that allow spell resistance.

otherwise, greater rod of quickening MDJ + blasphemy also works.

well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative.
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Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2010, 03:29:32 PM »
Really, it all starts with becoming immune to divinations, especially Contact other Plane. Depending on how you interpret the rules, the god of X can see you doing X, any mortal magic you use to obscure yourself doesn't work against a god. Since contact other plane doesn't target you, but puts you in communication with someone who can scry you I don't know of any RAW defenses.

tl;dr, Ban Contact other Plane, and ban Craft Contingent spell while you're at it.

and rework deities.

seriosuly, we're working with a deity WITHOUT casting. consider one with.
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skydragonknight

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2010, 03:39:30 PM »
My "Anti-caster Caster" is an Eldritch Theurge who puts AMFs on mages he hits with his Eldritch blast.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2010, 04:11:08 PM »

well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative.
If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init.  Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.
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Hijax

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Re: The end of all "AntiMage" threads
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2010, 04:12:05 PM »

well, its moot, because kord automatically wins initiative.
If only there were some sort of spell that lets you act without winning init.  Some sort of magical ability to increase your celerity.

you cant immediate action if you haven't acted yet.
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