The end of all "AntiMage" threads

[snakeman830]

That looks pretty good lans. I made a similar build that relied on Sun School, Occult Slayer, and readied dimension door actions quite some time ago, but that was long before the factotum existed. I don't think it was possible to have multiple readied actions back then, and that surely amps up the effectiveness quite a bit. You're going to need some kind of Blindsight or something similar, to counter simple things like Mirror Image and Invisibility, but that's certainly attainable. 

This sounds like a good time to use a Gem of True Seeing.  If an encounter requires you to burn through all 30 minutes, I don't know how to help you.  On the upside, the wizard is probably out of spells.

Would permanent arcane sight work?

Better would just be a Permanancied Blindsight spell.  Normally I would suggest a Blindfold of True Darkness, but if the mage is outside a 30ft radius, you're screwed.  Using the permanancied spell lets you keep normal vision active which can be augmented with things like See Invisibility.

[PhaedrusXY]

See Invisible is a legal target for Permanency. Is Blindsight?

[juton]

I just looked up Pierce Magical Concealment (CArc.82). It just negates every source of magical mischance, magical concealment and mirror image. Including Invisibility, I don't think it lets you detect invisible creatures. It needs Con 13, Blindsight, Mage Slayer. I'm not sure it is what's right for this build, but I think it would work out well in play.

[KellKheraptis]

I just looked up Pierce Magical Concealment (CArc.82). It just negates every source of magical mischance, magical concealment and mirror image. Including Invisibility, I don't think it lets you detect invisible creatures. It needs Con 13, Blindsight, Mage Slayer. I'm not sure it is what's right for this build, but I think it would work out well in play.

Heh, one more reason Swiftblade is a bad ass, since IIRC isn't their miss chance Ex?

[snakeman830]

See Invisible is a legal target for Permanency. Is Blindsight?

According to Savage Species, yes.

[LargePrime]

Would permanent arcane sight work?

Better would just be a Permanancied Blindsight spell.  Normally I would suggest a Blindfold of True Darkness, but if the mage is outside a 30ft radius, you're screwed.  Using the permanancied spell lets you keep normal vision active which can be augmented with things like See Invisibility.

Why is blindsight better than arcane sight?

[snakeman830]

Would permanent arcane sight work?

Better would just be a Permanancied Blindsight spell.  Normally I would suggest a Blindfold of True Darkness, but if the mage is outside a 30ft radius, you're screwed.  Using the permanancied spell lets you keep normal vision active which can be augmented with things like See Invisibility.

Why is blindsight better than arcane sight?

Blindsight lets you know exactly where the mage is, not just what spell effects are in place.  Since your aim is to hit the mage, the former is far more important.

[PhaedrusXY]

Would permanent arcane sight work?

Better would just be a Permanancied Blindsight spell.  Normally I would suggest a Blindfold of True Darkness, but if the mage is outside a 30ft radius, you're screwed.  Using the permanancied spell lets you keep normal vision active which can be augmented with things like See Invisibility.

Why is blindsight better than arcane sight?

Blindsight lets you know exactly where the mage is, not just what spell effects are in place.  Since your aim is to hit the mage, the former is far more important.

Technically Arcane Sight should do that, too, since you can see his active spell effects... I know some DMs might not interpret it that way, but I think RAW that's how it works.

[SorO_Lost]

1. no it doesn't. its a swift action to activate, those can only be taken on your turn.
2. also, on your issue with contingencies: they have more than one thanks to craft contingency spell.
3. Nowhere does it state that the deity has the option of turning the casters question down(though maybe this is what is covered in the random roll. anyways), or that it gets a save, or ANYTHING. it just says: you get a true, one-word answer.

1. Is the point. If it is your go, IE the timer Celerity is best to cast, it works. A belt can be used in response to celerity the same way celerity is used in response to you're attack on the wizard. It wouldn't work if the wizard was able of casting a second celerity unless you had multiple stacked belts for charges and your own recovery of swift actions. That should have been your focus the entire time instead of trying to argue an up hill battle.

2. My point was, and always has been. A stated out wizard does not have the luxury of changing his contingencies every time you the player get told off by other player before said telling off happens. Earlier in this thread I mentioned this and was linked to P's build which does not have a contingency in place. IE it lost against said tactic. To counter saying it can't lose it whole heartedly depends on COP to have the proper contingency in place.

It should also be noted that by hiring another caster anyone can COP-out to knowing the contingencies of any wizard anyway. The contingency was cast to counter mind the tactic that was decided after and based on the contingency. Tactic doesn't exist until the contingency.

3. Someone quoted something I completely skipped over until that post.

On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.

Define Rarely and note it doesn't matter which deity chooses to block it and there is a lot of gods running around.
One deity blocks a few questions once out of every wizard built from people reading this spams dozens of COP per week.
I rarely roll a 20 yet the odds say one out of every twenty rolls will be a 20.
nm, beat you to it. One series of spells of a single wizard of thousands he has cast before of thousands of other wizards in a once per life incident is pretty rare to me even without the die comparison.

[LargePrime]

Technically Arcane Sight should do that, too, since you can see his active spell effects... I know some DMs might not interpret it that way, but I think RAW that's how it works.

Thanks for posting this.  I thought I had missed something big.

[Hijax]

It should also be noted that by hiring another caster anyone can COP-out to knowing the contingencies of any wizard anyway. The contingency was cast to counter mind the tactic that was decided after and based on the contingency. Tactic doesn't exist until the contingency.

Which brings us right back to the problem of not being able to defeat casters without using magic ourselves.

3. Someone quoted something I completely skipped over until that post.l

On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.

Define Rarely and note it doesn't matter which deity chooses to block it and there is a lot of gods running around.
One deity blocks a few questions once out of every wizard built from people reading this spams dozens of COP per week.
I rarely roll a 20 yet the odds say one out of every twenty rolls will be a 20.
nm, beat you to it. One series of spells of a single wizard of thousands he has cast before of thousands of other wizards in a once per life incident is pretty rare to me even without the die comparison.

Valid point. I must have missed that, for which i apologize.
However, you say i should "note it doesn't matter which deity chooses to block"
it does say "certain deities or forces", which implies that only certain deities have the power to block this.

[LargePrime]

On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.

I understand "certain deities or forces." to mean a specific deity (or forces) may block requests on topics they wish to have blocked.

This sounds like fluff text that gives the DM and players and out for short circuiting adventures.  I suggest 'Rarely' should be understood in this context.  Not in the context of 20 identical COP in a row and all of them fail and saying, "Hey, that's not rare!  Thats 20 times in a row."

So I guess in an epic conflict like 2 20th level characters, in which the gods are 'Net' neutral to the outcome, one should assume COP does not work in either favor.

[Nachofan99]

I had something to suggest.

What about the Voidwraith from Libris Mortis pg. 131-132.  If you get next to the caster then they cannot breath; slap on Lockdown and they're in trouble.  So it would be something like:

Activate Belt of Battle -> Ready Action -> Fire AMF Arrow As Surprise -> Caster's Contingency/Surprise Defense (Tortoise) Triggers -> Your Readied Action Triggers to put yourself next to them; they cannot breathe.  Now you have taken care of a *few* more options that they cannot use.  I know that in the most technical of all senses, on a cursory glance, the inability to breathe does not explicitly state you cannot use Verbal component spells - however, the Voidwraith's ability states that you *must* hold your breath so if you are adjacent to them you don't have a choice.  Can't hold your breath and speak in a clear voice simultaneously.  How many Swift/Immediate cast spells don't have a verbal component? Not too many.

Food for thought.

EDIT:

LargePrime, I can't help but agree with you more.  I don't believe that Contact Other Plane is a legitimate defense for casters because you do not have anywhere near a 100% chance for it to work the way it's being portrayed to work.  Forget about involving 2 opposing parties both with COP - within the spell description itself it can fail on its own. Additionally, since there is no absolute game mechanic to determine whether the divination is blocked or not, how can you be *certain* it works the way you want it to?  You cannot, therefore, it's kind of strange that so many of these TO, paranoid wizards rely on such a random and seemingly unpredictable "Defense".

I also always wonder why the "anti-mage" is not attacking the mage at the very same time the wizard's mind no longer occupies their body or has to recast their contingencies and so on.  They've been casting COP for NI amount of time?  Wouldn't that mean that on the day they get attacked successfully it would be because they rolled the dice and got the worst possible outcome for their COP?

I just don't see COP as being an impenetrable defense at all.

[PhaedrusXY]

Look... the objections to Contact Other Plane are bullshit. I'm just going to call it like it is. Either you don't understand how we're talking about using it, or you're being dishonest.

The spell has a 90% chance of giving you a correct answer, and nothing says you can't use another divination to ask "Are the answers I got on my last Contact Other Plane reliable?" Hell, you could even cast the exact same damned spell again, and go ask a different deity the same questions. That would increase the success rate to 99%, and you could use a third single question divination to ask "Which of the two previously cast Contact Other Plane spells is reliable?", or some such crap. It isn't even hard to come up with an error checking system for this, so I'm going to assume that you didn't even try, or bother to read those that have already been spelled out in previous debates about this shit.

And as to "attacking the wizard while he's casting it..." he'd know you're coming, because of the last time he cast it. He doesn't wait till the predictions from the first one have "expired" before casting it again. He casts it again before he is vulnerable. So he always knows exactly when someone is going to attack him, and exactly how best to defend himself against their attacks and WTFPWN his attacker. If he gets an answer of "you'll be attacked when you next cast Contact Other Plane"... he'll just take some motherfucking precautions.

And here is a simple set of questions that I came up with in like 2 minutes for how a mage could figure out exactly who is going to attack him for the next week, and how to best stomp the crap out of them. I'm sure someone with freakin' godlike intelligence the likes of which the real world has never known could do a lot better...

[spoiler]1) What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.

Continue this line of questioning until no further threats are discovered.

Then ask things like "Other than the threats I've uncovered today using Contact Other Plane, are there any other defensive measures that will be critical to my survival this week?"
If answer is "yes", then "What is the most important of these defensive measures?" and "What day should I take this defensive measure on?" "At what time should I take this defensive measure?" (Repeat for 2nd most important defensive measure, and also for offensive measures)[/spoiler]

So... using this one spell, the wizard is always going to know exactly who is coming after him, and what spells to prepare and strategies to use to defeat them. The only way this ever fails to work, if the wizard is using some error checking divinations to make sure his Contact Other Plane spell gave him the correct results, is through divine intervention (also known as the DM being a dickhead).




The only way to beat Contact Other Plane is to use it yourself to counter the other guy's Contact Other Plane, and then things get complicated as hell.

[dark_samuari]

The only way this ever fails to work, if the wizard is using some error checking divinations to make sure his Contact Other Plane spell gave him the correct results, is through divine intervention (also known as the DM being a dickhead).

I can think of numerous ways that a player could convince a god to protect themselves in such a manner.

I mean, we can keep this theoretical if you like but the moment you want to make it practical (you know, where we should be bringing this) than Contact Other Plane becomes weaker.

[Tonymitsu]

Look... the objections to Contact Other Plane are bullshit. I'm just going to call it like it is. Either you don't understand how we're talking about using it, or you're being dishonest.

The spell has a 90% chance of giving you a correct answer, and nothing says you can't use another divination to ask "Are the answers I got on my last Contact Other Plane reliable?" Hell, you could even cast the exact same damned spell again, and go ask a different deity the same questions. That would increase the success rate to 99%, and you could use a third single question divination to ask "Which of the two previously cast Contact Other Plane spells is reliable?", or some such crap. It isn't even hard to come up with an error checking system for this, so I'm going to assume that you didn't even try, or bother to read those that have already been spelled out in previous debates about this shit.

And as to "attacking the wizard while he's casting it..." he'd know you're coming, because of the last time he cast it. He doesn't wait till the predictions from the first one have "expired" before casting it again. He casts it again before he is vulnerable. So he always knows exactly when someone is going to attack him, and exactly how best to defend himself against their attacks and WTFPWN his attacker. If he gets an answer of "you'll be attacked when you next cast Contact Other Plane"... he'll just take some motherfucking precautions.

And here is a simple set of questions that I came up with in like 2 minutes for how a mage could figure out exactly who is going to attack him for the next week, and how to best stomp the crap out of them. I'm sure someone with freakin' godlike intelligence the likes of which the real world has never known could do a lot better...

[spoiler]1) What is the first name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Bob)
2) What is the last name of the enemy that will be the biggest threat to me in the coming week? (Let's say the answer is Smith)
3) What is Bob Smith's biggest vulnerability?
4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me?
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me?
6) What day will I face Bob Smith on?
7-12) repeat 1-6 for the second biggest threat of the week.

Continue this line of questioning until no further threats are discovered.

Then ask things like "Other than the threats I've uncovered today using Contact Other Plane, are there any other defensive measures that will be critical to my survival this week?"
If answer is "yes", then "What is the most important of these defensive measures?" and "What day should I take this defensive measure on?" "At what time should I take this defensive measure?" (Repeat for 2nd most important defensive measure, and also for offensive measures)[/spoiler]

So... using this one spell, the wizard is always going to know exactly who is coming after him, and what spells to prepare and strategies to use to defeat them. The only way this ever fails to work, if the wizard is using some error checking divinations to make sure his Contact Other Plane spell gave him the correct results, is through divine intervention (also known as the DM being a dickhead).




The only way to beat Contact Other Plane is to use it yourself to counter the other guy's Contact Other Plane, and then things get complicated as hell.

+1.

I mean, isn't the whole point of a theoretical exercise in D&D to assume an arbitrary indifferent DM who doesn't care about what happens to his campaign world so long as all established rules are followed?

So isn't any discussion about things that could happen or require a judgement call or aren't explicitly spelled out irrelevant since the we already know the DM won't intervene one way or the other?


I want to see a dead caster as much as the next guy, but we at least have to stick to the parameters of the experiment, right?


On topic, if we've already established that multiple readied actions are the most surefire way of killing a wizard before he can kill you, what about methods for the lone character?
What's the second-most surefire way?

[LargePrime]

So... using this one spell, the wizard is always going to know exactly who is coming after him, and what spells to prepare and strategies to use to defeat them. The only way this ever fails to work, if the wizard is using some error checking divinations to make sure his Contact Other Plane spell gave him the correct results, is through divine intervention (also known as the DM being a dickhead).

Unless you get no response.  That is a "Not error checkable" response.  And no response is valid if you have 2, 20th level characters fighting it out.  Either one we can assume has come to the attention of at least one deity of some sort, which may be wagering on the outcome and not allow each other to determine it outright.

I mean, isn't the whole point of a theoretical exercise in D&D to assume an arbitrary indifferent DM who doesn't care about what happens to his campaign world so long as all established rules are followed?

An indifferent Dm should use the "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked" clause and say COP gives a null response.

[Havok4]

That is a "Not error checkable" response.  And no response is valid if you have 2, 20th level characters fighting it out. An indifferent Dm should use the "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked" clause and say COP gives a null response.

Why would this be the case? There is no clause in COP that states that the answers given cannot be verified with another deity. Assuming divine intervention for all questions between powerful entities in all cases renders the spell completely useless and there are no rules that state that is the case. That is just your interpretation of how interdeity conflict works (something not fully covered in the rules).

[juton]

I think it is fair to use Miracle to block COP, but that's just my opinion.

None of the gods in D&D are omniscient, the ones that are most likely to be able to answer your questions are the ones with the portfolios of magic, battle and treachery/plotting. This is because gods get information a week prior if an action affects their portfolios. Is there anywhere you can go that the gods can't see you? If you say plane shifted from Greyhawk to Faerun then Boccob presumably wouldn't be able to keep tabs on you. You could dimension jump to the Dragonlance setting or any other where the gods are sleeping/not responding, if you took precautions then no one would know what you are doing.

Still, this unravels if you have to go back to Greyhawk to fight the Wizard, but maybe someone can take this idea and run with it.

[Littha]

Obviously this is all solved with liberal application of Iron Heart surge

Couldn't a Kaorti Warblade IHS away the entire material plane?

4) Which of Bob Smith's capabilities poses the biggest threat to me? Maneuver
5) What is the best way to counter Bob Smith's biggest threat to me? Spell