Rogue Mole Build

[Quikren]

Hey guys! I'm new here I got directed here from Dandu on the ENWorld forums.

I'm working on a rogue build that takes full advantage of the Mole Handbook (mainly the archived version, rather than the renewal handbook here, which is pretty incomplete) http://web.archive.org/web/20080325110459/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=961599

We're doing a monstrous/scoundrel campaign in Faerun. I have it mostly figured out, but am stuck between two choices.

My DM is pretty flexible as far as source material (He even allows some homebrew). We're starting at ECL11, and thus far my character has LA+3 and 1 racial hit die (i.e. I start with 7 class levels). I'm planning on using the UA rules to burn off the level adjustment.

The general idea is that I burrow underground, and get into flanking position. Then I'd jump up, sneak attack, and burrow back down. It would keep me from being attacked unless they readied an action or used AoE.

The current plan is to make an entomanothropic rogue (w/ snow spider for 30' climb speed, free spring attack, and weapon finesse). He'd take 5 levels of the mole PrC (Dragon #310, p71), which would allow him to burrow (and see) through stone.

I have two ideas at this point, but I'm open to suggestions. Also, It would be great if you would confirm I did the math right for extra attacks. I've never done two weapon fighting before.

For either of the following, I'd get Mobility, Two-Weapon fighting, and Improved TWF. Which do you think is better:

Two-weapon spring attack  (rogue 7 / tempest 5 / mole 5).

• Would need to take Dodge feat
• Allows me to attack with both  weapons during a spring attack.
• Sneak attack damage: +7d6
• BAB:  +13/+8/+3
• I think this means I get to apply +13 to BOTH weapons, plus my +8 dex!
• 14d6 max SA damage

 
Two five feet steps (rogue 5 / lurk 1 / evocator 7 / mole 5).

• Take Greater Two Weapon Fighting (not required for the class, seems useful)
• For  an extra level, I can make a full attack with two 5 foot steps.
• Some psionic ability. Yawn.
• Sneak damage: +6d6
• BAB: +11/+6/+1
• I believe this gives me 6 attacks... +9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1
• So 30d6 max SA damage!

Again, while this is mostly fleshed out, I'm open to any suggestions.

Both of these builds have nearly identical playstyles. The tempest build would allow a bit more flexibility since it's spring attack based, but other than the higher attack for tempest and the higher damage for evocator, I really don't see much difference. My real desire is to pick the one likely to deal more damage on average.

That said, the Evocator build would get a 6 psionic abilities (max level 2), and 11 power points.

Also, I have +8 dex and weapon finesse from the Spider, in case that factors in.

Thanks!

[Anklebite]

I'm gonna beat TML to it and suggest savage ghost progression.

[Quikren]

I'm gonna beat TML to it and suggest savage ghost progression.

Do you mean Savage Species' Ghost Brute? I don't think my DM likes incorporeal player characters... I also don't think it fits with my character, as I wouldn't need a burrow speed then, etc.

Unless you meant something else...

[Sinfire Titan]

Honestly, being a Mole PC is fairly difficult without being able to go incorporeal.

Thankfully, your ECL is high enough that you can take the easy route: Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak)+Open Lesser Chakra.

[Quikren]

Honestly, being a Mole PC is fairly difficult without being able to go incorporeal.

Thankfully, your ECL is high enough that you can take the easy route: Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak)+Open Lesser Chakra.

Could you explain this to me? I don't understand the need to go incorporeal. I'll already have a solid burrow speed, and thanks to the Mole class, I'll be able to burrow through stone. (My DM has said that brick counts as shaped stone). With two-weapon spring attack, I can pop up / get back without being hit, and the same with two five foot steps. What does incorporeal net me?

It looks like Phase Cloak essentially grants me a climb speed and the ability to become incorporeal? Again, what's the benefit to a Mole who can start and end his turn underground?

[Sinfire Titan]

Could you explain this to me? I don't understand the need to go incorporeal. I'll already have a solid burrow speed, and thanks to the Mole class, I'll be able to burrow through stone. (My DM has said that brick counts as shaped stone). With two-weapon spring attack, I can pop up / get back without being hit, and the same with two five foot steps. What does incorporeal net me?

It looks like Phase Cloak essentially grants me a climb speed and the ability to become incorporeal? Again, what's the benefit to a Mole who can start and end his turn underground?

The ability the Phase Cloak grants is effectively Invisibility at will. It also renders you nigh immune to AoOs unless the attacker has both a Force weapon and See Invisibility.

This stacks with your Burrowing speed. It makes it even harder to counter your movements (readied actions could still mess you up with just the burrow speed) and gives you Sneak Attack at will. It also makes it so you can go Mole whenever, not just when on the ground (and gives you a psuedo Fly speed).

[Quikren]

The ability the Phase Cloak grants is effectively Invisibility at will. It also renders you nigh immune to AoOs unless the attacker has both a Force weapon and See Invisibility.

This stacks with your Burrowing speed. It makes it even harder to counter your movements (readied actions could still mess you up with just the burrow speed) and gives you Sneak Attack at will. It also makes it so you can go Mole whenever, not just when on the ground (and gives you a psuedo Fly speed).

Firstly, my DM has told me that character level means class levels plus racial hit dice - does not count level adjustment. I could still do as you say, but not until ECL15.

That said... the description of Phase Cloak says you become material after each move. If I take two 5 foot steps or a spring attack, that would mean while I'm attacking, I'm still corporeal. It *would* let me go Mole whenever, but if I'm not on the ground or climbing, I'd probably be underwater? Definitely something to consider as far as stealing things, as some buildings will be wood, etc.

If it did what you said, I doubt my DM would allow it anyway =/ He probably won't be happy when he realizes I'm making a mole character, but he's already approved the things I asked about.

It already seems like a mole is basically impossible to take down without readying an action, and should that happen, they'd be a sitting duck for anyone else. And since I have a +4 con bonus, I do have a fair amount of HP.

That all said... what do you think about the two builds I came up with? Based on the effective Base Attack Bonus on the two, it seems like the Evocator is a damn nice build. Simple question thread taught me I was calculating attack wrong... With +8 dex and weapon finesse, that means +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7. I think that kind of answers it.

[snakeman830]

If it did what you said, I doubt my DM would allow it anyway =/ He probably won't be happy when he realizes I'm making a mole character, but he's already approved the things I asked about.

It already seems like a mole is basically impossible to take down without readying an action, and should that happen, they'd be a sitting duck for anyone else. And since I have a +4 con bonus, I do have a fair amount of HP.

To be frank, that is kind of the point of a Mole.  If the enemy is targeting you, he's a sitting duck.  If he's not, then you're attacking with impunity.

Yes, I'm aware I need to finish transferring the Mole Handbook here.  Sounds like it's on my to-do list for spring break.

I would take Expeditious Dodge from Races of the Wild instead of Dodge.  You'll get much more mileage out of it, since you will always be on the move.

[Solo]

Build a Hood.
[/Endarire]

Glad to see you made it over, btw.

[NiteCyper]

Mineral Warrior burrows.

At ECL11, casters rock molery, both in its neutralization and execution, e.g. Mindsight and Earth Dreamer.

[spoiler]Ghost Dragonwrought Kobold Hood[/spoiler]

[Quikren]

Build a Hood.
[/Endarire]

Glad to see you made it over, btw.

A hood?

[Anklebite]

hood