Author Topic: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute  (Read 3233 times)

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fun_at_funerals

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Ok, so my brother wants to play a super brute for our upcoming campaign. He envisions himself playing a character running about the battlefield, hitting multiple targets across his run, and being so strong that he knocks people back or prone. He also wants to be a brutal grappler, capable of grabbing a target, throwing them up into the air, and power bombing them into the ground as well as hitting the ground with such force that it deforms the terrain. Oh, and he plans to use his fists for most of his bashing needs and maybe two shields (the DM ruled that if he wields two, he gains the shield bonus of 1 but can use total defense or fight defensively for total cover). Basically, I think he's going for something akin to World War Hulk.

Presently, I'm thinking of hooking him up with a Half-Minotaur Goliath Barbarian using the appropriate Substitution levels (which he plans to name either Bullstone or Boulderbull Rhothgar :D). Right now, I'm thinking of finding multiple ways of boosting his size, hopefully finding a way to jack it all the way up to colossal. With the present build, he qualifies as a Huge creature for damage (Goliath: Medium + Minotaur: Large + Mountain Rage Huge) and Huge for Grapple (Goliath Powerful Build: Large + Minotaur Huge + Mountain Rage: Still Huge). I threw in 2 levels of Totemist for the Totem Avatar soulmeld to reach Gargantuan size for damage. Plus, they work well by giving extra attacks via Girallion Arms (the natural attacks are the best for him as they will scale with his size). Also gives him a boost on his grapple checks. This much is certain. For the time being, I have the tentative build of:

Half-Minotaur Goliath Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Totemist 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 1/Bloodclaw Master 2/Totem Rager 5/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Full BAB X 2

Our DM ruled that any prestige class requiring race, unless it depends on any specific racial feature for functionality, is open to all races, thus allowing us to take Deepstone Sentinel (which is pretty thematically sound for the character actually). This gives the character the "bash the ground and mess up the terrain" abilities as well as makes him a pretty good disruptor. Bloodclaw Master works well as it allows him to use his full massive Str. bonus on secondary natural weapon attacks (overriding the 1/2 str bonus rule on Girallion Arms) as well as allowing him to use his full BAB on all of them as well. As a plus, the rage-like ability of BcM seems like it can be used in conjunction with Rage for a further increase in Str. Totem Rager is good since it boosts his Melshaping Level and grant him access to some chakra binding.

He also stated that he wanted to jump around and crash down on things like the Hulk, so Tiger Claw seemed like an appropriate discipline. He also wanted to hurl crap at people andIwas thinking that he could chuck the stone pillars he raised with Deepstone Sentinel at people, so that works well too.

The only problems are:
(1) how do I make this thing a hit and runner? I was thinking that Desert Tempest (6 lvl Desert Wind Maneuver) would be perfect for him. In fact, it's exactly the effect he was going for. The only problem is that he doesn't have access to it. Is there anyway to simulate it and do it at will?
(2) There is no way that he can meet the prerequisites of both DsS and BcM. Any way to make it work?
(3) I've been trying to figure out how to give him more attacks beyond the 5 granted by Girallion Arms (4 from Totem Bind + 1 from Arm Chakras). He wants to hit hard and hit as often as possible, to be the Two-Weapon fighter in the group. Anyway to achieve this?
(4) It's rather starved for maneuvers and Iwas hoping of squeezing in some Iron Heart Maneuver which also fit well with the Goliath and Deepstone Sentinel aspect of the build. Any way to up this?
(5) The progression of Rage is kinda stunted, is there anyway to further increase it?
[edited]
(6) Is there any way to make this guy even BIGGER (currently Gargantuan for damage and Huge for Grapples)?
(7) This things power will come from optmizing his Str score through Rage. Any way to further jack up this things Str Bonus?
(8) I cannot actually get Double Bind Chakra due to his Meldshaper Level being too low (minimum of 9 MSL). Any way to boost this? This is mostly for Girallion Arms+Lamia Belt (which, according to my reading, correct me if I'm wrong, should give a bonus 2 claw attacks for every class attack made by Girallion Arms, granting 8 attacks total)
[//edited]

Right now, his feat progression is as follows:
ECL 1 (3: 1 Base + 2 Flaws): Power Attack, Double Chakra Bind (Totem Chakra), Battle Jump
ECL 3 Multi-Weapon Fighting
ECL 4 Improved Bullrush
ECL 5 Knockback
ECL 6 Shock Trooper
ECL 9 Cobalt Rage
ECL 12 Open Lesser Chakra
ECL 15 Leap Attack
ECL 18 Free

Thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 07:12:46 PM by fun_at_funerals »
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Anklebite

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Re: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 05:07:25 PM »
you could pick up desert tempest with magic items. just take one that grants a 6th level maneuver, and tack onto it the items to grant two lower level maneuvers.

he never said anything about being able to do all this in an AMF, right?
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fun_at_funerals

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Re: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 05:29:56 PM »
I was hoping of find a way without having to rely too much on items. The fact that they won't work in an AMF is another downer.

Then again, we do have a Heartfire Fanner capable of granting 3 bonus feats with his Bardic Music. I guess he could just rely on him for that. Using them up all on Martial Study does seem like a waste, though.

Also, a question, how would this be resolved:

Upon grappling a foe, you decide to jump up and slam him to the ground. Jumping is simple as the rules for movement in a grapple as stated and jumping counts as part on one's movement. How do you determine the damage though? Also, what would happen if you had the battle jump feat? I know the situation disqualifies the use of Battle Jump but it seems like it should as you are still using downward momentum to deal damage, not the mention driving the target into the ground (Dungeon Crasher?).

Also, how would Lamia Belt interact with Girallion Arms? Do I apply the 2 bonus claw attacks from Lamia Belt to each of the 4 claw attacks of the Girallion Arms? Or does it only apply once?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 06:25:56 PM by fun_at_funerals »
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Anklebite

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Re: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 09:07:32 PM »

Also, a question, how would this be resolved:

Upon grappling a foe, you decide to jump up and slam him to the ground. Jumping is simple as the rules for movement in a grapple as stated and jumping counts as part on one's movement. How do you determine the damage though? Also, what would happen if you had the battle jump feat? I know the situation disqualifies the use of Battle Jump but it seems like it should as you are still using downward momentum to deal damage, not the mention driving the target into the ground (Dungeon Crasher?).

sounds like a reflavored unarmed strike made during a grapple. is it that hard to just SAY "I piledrive him" without having special rules for it?

as for lamia belt, it just adds 2 extra secondary claw attacks to your full attack routine. regardless of other sources of natural attacks.
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Re: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 09:31:20 PM »
Also, a question, how would this be resolved:

Upon grappling a foe, you decide to jump up and slam him to the ground. Jumping is simple as the rules for movement in a grapple as stated and jumping counts as part on one's movement. How do you determine the damage though? Also, what would happen if you had the battle jump feat? I know the situation disqualifies the use of Battle Jump but it seems like it should as you are still using downward momentum to deal damage, not the mention driving the target into the ground (Dungeon Crasher?).

Reminds me of the Fleshraker's (MMIII) jumping / grappling / pinning charge.  Perhaps give that a once over and try to come up with some homebrew feat or Tiger Claw manuever that will emulate it.

Also, your DM seems like a lenient one, but just be certain you are aware that Mountain Rage specifically states it make you Large size.  It does not increase your current size by +1 category.  So RAW if you are already large, it won't make you huge.  But I'm guessing your DM may not have a problem with that.
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fun_at_funerals

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Re: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 11:59:13 PM »
Reminds me of the Fleshraker's (MMIII) jumping / grappling / pinning charge.  Perhaps give that a once over and try to come up with some homebrew feat or Tiger Claw manuever that will emulate it.

Also, your DM seems like a lenient one, but just be certain you are aware that Mountain Rage specifically states it make you Large size.  It does not increase your current size by +1 category.  So RAW if you are already large, it won't make you huge.  But I'm guessing your DM may not have a problem with that.

Yes, he is quite lenient and reasonable. We foresaw this technicality and discussed it with him. He understands the rules as often making assumptions about the normal circumstances under which a particular ability or rule will be used without making these assumption the only circumstances under which these things would work. He reasoned that Mountain Rage was made under the assumption that Goliaths wouldn't be taking on any templates of making use of some other legitimate adjustment to increase its size and that it was perfectly justifiable that a large Goliath would have its size adjusted because of it.

You're probably right. We're probably going to have to make some homebrew mechanic for that. I mean, that sort of thing should take into account falling damage and the weight of the piledriving creature bearing down on the target

sounds like a reflavored unarmed strike made during a grapple. is it that hard to just SAY "I piledrive him" without having special rules for it?

as for lamia belt, it just adds 2 extra secondary claw attacks to your full attack routine. regardless of other sources of natural attacks.

Ah, thank you for the clarification on Lamai Belt. Not as overpowered as I thought but two extra attacks is still two extra attacks.

Right now, I'm having difficulty figuring out what Totem chakras are the best to bind. Girallion Arms is definitely a keeper as it just works awesomely with Blood Claw Master, that and for the extra attack it grants. I'm caught between Lamia Belt for the extra attacks and Sphynx Claws for the increased claw size which would scale much better wih the size increases (1d8 over the 1d4 default of Girallion Arms). Totem Avatar bound to the shoulder chakra is definitely in there for the size increase.

Also, our DM has decided to make it easier for us and allowed us to merge the Bear Warrior (Reflavored to be a Minotaur) and the Totem Rager. I wanna ask you guys what you think.

Basically, we replaced the special Cobalt Rage modifying ability of Totem Rager and re-engineered it to grant the ability score bonuses of the Bear (Minotaur form for this variant) Rage ability of Bear Warrior in steps (+4 str and con, +2 Will saves), each step costing a point of essentia (gaining Powerful Charge with a 3 essentia investment). Other than this, it gets all the same class abilities as Totem Rager.
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fun_at_funerals

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Re: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2010, 11:46:10 PM »
Bump  :D
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fun_at_funerals

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Re: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2010, 06:07:03 PM »
Ok, this is the build thus far. We just discussed things with our DM and he has allowed us to use the shinning beacon of awesome that is the Monster of Legend template. It's just absolutely obscene how the thing doesn't have like ginormous LA. He's even been gracious enough to allow us to refashion its 5th level Cleric spellcasting to 5th level Totemist Meldshaping. For the special attack and attributes of the Monster of Legend, he's ruled that we may only make use of the size increase and the constant Haste ability. We agreed that the restriction was very reasonable, perhaps even generous.

Half-Minotaur Goliath Monster of Legend
Name: Boulderbull Rhothgar
Ability Scores:
Str: 36 (18 Base +10 Monster of Legend + 4 Goliath + 4 Half-Minotaur)
Dex: 14 (10 Base +6 Monster of Legend -2 Goliath)
Con: 29 (15 Base +10 Monster of Legend +2 Goliath +2 Minotaur)
Int: 12 (12 Base +2 Monster of Legend -2 Minotaur)
Cha: 13 (11 Base +2 Monster of Legend)
Wis: 14 (10 Base +2 Monster of Legend +2 Minotaur)

Barbarian 1/Totemist 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 1/Totem Rage 5/Blood Claw Master 3/Crusader 1/Deep Stone Sentinel 5
ECL 1 (5: 1 Base + 2 Flaws +2 Monster of Legend): Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Knockback, Multiattack, Improved Initiative
ECL 3 Battle Jump
ECL 4 Leap Attack
ECL 5 Free
ECL 6 Cobalt Rage
ECL 9 Double Charka Bind (Totem)
ECL 12 Open Lesser Chakra (Arms)
ECL 15 Free
ECL 18 Free

For size increases: Actual Size --- Damage --- Grapple
   Goliath: Medium --- Large --- Large
   Half-Minotaur: Large --- Huge --- Huge
   Monster of Legend: Large --- Gargantuan --- Huge
   Mountain Rage: Huge --- Colossal --- Huge

Our DM has allowed the following adaptations to the rules:
(1) The Shifting rage-like ability of Bloodclaw Master will be merged with Mountain Rage. All ability score adjustments, special attributes, and abilities from Shifting will trigger along with Mountain Rage and both abilities will stack for the purposes of determining uses per day. Also, duration of this merged Rage will equal 3 + Bloodclaw Master Levels + Con mod.
(2) Cobalt Rage will now grant +2 Str and Con and +1 to Will saves per point of essentia invested in it.

He's considering boosting the new bonus of Cobalt Rage to +4 to Str and Con. Do you think that might be a little excessive?

Also, when he said that this build functions as a Totemist of 5th level, if it should affect which chakra locations he has access to or not. What do you think? Monster of Legend just grants 5th level Cleric casting access to the spells of 3 Domains. Do you think this exceeds the power level of the original ability it was meant to replace?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 06:12:07 PM by fun_at_funerals »
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Re: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2010, 06:19:39 PM »
I don't know where you get the +2 LA for monster of legend, but according to the Update booklet it's +7 LA.

fun_at_funerals

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Re: Maxing out a Goliath Barbarian Totemist Hit-and-Running Super Brute
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2010, 06:37:24 PM »
Damn it. Neither of us has access to that. Got my hopes up when I checked the errata. I'll be sure to bring this up to him. But for the time being, I'm going to follow our DM's initial verdict until I can gain access and we are able to discuss this in further depth. The DM was quite excited when we discussed the build with him.

[edit] Downloaded the booklet. It makes no sense to me that Half-Golems still don't get LA considering some of the abilities that they get. I intend to suggest giving up some of the bonuses of the Monster of Legend to make it more or less match the Half-Golems. Intending to drop Improve Initiative, 1 special attribute/quality (instead of taking 2 as per the template rules, sigh, goodbye haste), as well as dropping NA bonus to +2, and Outsider type.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 07:13:04 PM by fun_at_funerals »
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