Poking Holes in the Joker

[Flay Crimsonwind]

The poor monk just isn't special. Like Gob. Cookie for the reference.

You mean Gob, the crappy pop-punk band from Vancouver?

Well, I learn something new everyday... no, not them.

And yeah JK, I use monk in a few builds, I'm just pointing out the problem with monk's as I see them. They're still fun to play, but god do you have to have the right balance in order to keep up power-wise.

[Anklebite]

The poor monk just isn't special. Like Gob. Cookie for the reference.

You mean Gob, the crappy pop-punk band from Vancouver?

Well, I learn something new everyday... no, not them.

And yeah JK, I use monk in a few builds, I'm just pointing out the problem with monk's as I see them. They're still fun to play, but god do you have to have the right balance in order to keep up power-wise.

yep, that is true. but I do believe the primary purpose of this thread is to laugh at Giacomo. not that people needed help with that.

[Lycanthromancer]

Giacomo: They're all gonna laugh at you!

[Prime32]

Giacomo has in fact been linked to this thread, from the parallel thread SiFir started on GitP. I believe that thread has now been deleted. Not locked, even.

[Anklebite]

Giacomo has in fact been linked to this thread, from the parallel thread SiFir started on GitP. I believe that thread has now been deleted. Not locked, even.

and no one has posted his reaction? link it! I assume that he had a reaction of some sorts.

[Sinfire Titan]

Giacomo has in fact been linked to this thread, from the parallel thread SiFir started on GitP. I believe that thread has now been deleted. Not locked, even.

and no one has posted his reaction? link it! I assume that he had a reaction of some sorts.

The entire thread was deleted. I even got two refractions that day.


For the record, I really hate Tuesdays.

[Bauglir]

To be fair, starting a thread just to mock someone IS rather a dick move, so I don't really fault the mods there for that (although, they HAVE taken many draconian actions in the past, so my opinion of them isn't really that high). Actually, I'm still kinda surprised this thread is still open here.

That said, I've read a lot of Giacomo's stuff, and... well, this thread does not exactly exaggerate the magnitude of his ineptitude, to phrase it in a polite-sounding fashion.

[RelentlessImp]

To be fair, starting a thread just to mock someone IS rather a dick move, so I don't really fault the mods there for that (although, they HAVE taken many draconian actions in the past, so my opinion of them isn't really that high). Actually, I'm still kinda surprised this thread is still open here.

That said, I've read a lot of Giacomo's stuff, and... well, this thread does not exactly exaggerate the magnitude of his ineptitude, to phrase it in a polite-sounding fashion.

Understates it, really. To continue the polite-sounding fashion.

[Anklebite]

To be fair, starting a thread just to mock someone IS rather a dick move, so I don't really fault the mods there for that (although, they HAVE taken many draconian actions in the past, so my opinion of them isn't really that high). Actually, I'm still kinda surprised this thread is still open here.

That said, I've read a lot of Giacomo's stuff, and... well, this thread does not exactly exaggerate the magnitude of his ineptitude, to phrase it in a polite-sounding fashion.

Understates it, really. To continue the polite-sounding fashion.

the reason this thread hasn't, and should not be deleted, is that it is a good lesson in practical optimization.  the only 100% guaranteed way of learning something is this world is via mistakes. by showing what not to do, we make greater strides towards a better understanding of the game and it's mechanics than we could by merely showing someone a good build.  regardless of giving fish and showing someone how to fish, it is also  important to show them why you do not fish with high voltage electrical lines, to give an extreme example.

you just lost the game.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Giacomo has in fact been linked to this thread, from the parallel thread SiFir started on GitP. I believe that thread has now been deleted. Not locked, even.

I thought it was just merged into the Monk Junk consolidated thread along with all those other monk threads that were floating around.

[JaronK]

And yeah JK, I use monk in a few builds, I'm just pointing out the problem with monk's as I see them. They're still fun to play, but god do you have to have the right balance in order to keep up power-wise.

Indeed, if you have stronger classes in the group (which is VERY likely) you're going to have to do some serious work.  And if you don't know how to optimize, your DM may have to help you out even if you are in a similar power level group.  Certainly I know where the "Monks suck" crowd is coming from.  Play a Monk next to a Druid and you REALLY start to feel it fast.

But okay, if we can I'd love to talk about how to make this thread far more than a "this poster is an idiot" thread.  That's kinda lame.  In general terms, what are his mistakes?  I've seen a lot of them, and I've seen a lot of those mistakes in other posters.  I think it's useful to point them out, not as a "screw you" sort of thing, but rather as a "don't do this" kind of thing.  Learning for your mistakes is good, but learning from the mistakes of others is even better if you can do it.

I think the first and foremost thing is confusing your own ideas of how things should be with how things actually are, combined with deciding you are right and then trying to prove it instead of trying to make yourself right.  Our minds are powerful things... we can force ourselves to believe and justify almost anything if we try.  He's not the only one to pull this move... I'm sure many here remember a poster who was absolutely obsessive about sword and shield wielders who did many of the same things, for example.

JaronK

[Solo]

Mistake 1: He believes that because Monks can get access to polycheese, that the game is balanced.

Mistake B: He believes that Monk is not MAD, because they can get feats such as Improved Trip without needing 13 Int or higher.

[Anklebite]

he thinks an AC of 18 is ok for a lvl13 monk. it is not by far.

he thinks that maxing crossclass UMD is a good idea. it is a poor one; if you wish to optimize UMD, at least do it properly. factotum1 with able learner works great.

he thinks single-classed monk is optimized. they are not.

he thinks that monks are not MAD. they are the definition of MAD.

he thinks that total reliance on party casters is ok.  this is from following his PBP where he tries(and fails) to prove monks equal with wizards. he cannot even fight a shadow without the druid magic-fanging him first.



generally, a strong monk needs to multiclass and PrC like hell.  generally, alot of the better monks are actually gishes (either arcane, divine or psionic).  this is because monks do in fact have weak points, and a source of casting really helps cover them.

[Negative Zero]

When I was younger, I'd deliberately take sides in arguments that I didn't believe in, just to see if I could win the argument anyway. It's definitely easy to argue something that isn't true, and even make it sound good if you're good at arguing. Ignoring the other side's argument is a good way to keep from weakening yours, but it's important to remember that the point should be to find the truth, not to 'win'.

[Solo]

he thinks that total reliance on party casters is ok.  this is from following his PBP where he tries(and fails) to prove monks equal with wizards. he cannot even fight a shadow without the druid magic-fanging him first.

Don't Monks get Ki Strike: Magic?

[Anklebite]

he thinks that total reliance on party casters is ok.  this is from following his PBP where he tries(and fails) to prove monks equal with wizards. he cannot even fight a shadow without the druid magic-fanging him first.

Don't Monks get Ki Strike: Magic?

bypasses DR, but does not hit incorporeal. annoyingly enough.

[Mushroom Ninja]

he thinks an AC of 18 is ok for a lvl13 monk. it is not by far.

Well, it would be okay if the monk had a non-AC-based Hp Defense (like miss chance) or a crapload of Hp.  Unfortunately, the monk has neither without dumping a good deal of money into magic items.

And this is a problem, I think.  It seems to me that a good build should be playable in both at wbl and below wbl.  Also, I worry about any character that relies too heavily on consumables.  If a couple of battles go bad and the party doesn't have time to restock, you are in real danger of running out of gas.

[Solo]

And when you're in Ravenloft, shops stocking partially charged wands are in short supply.

[Mushroom Ninja]

And when you're in Ravenloft, shops stocking partially charged wands are in short supply.

Oh god, Ravenloft... Don't even get me started about that place...

[Anklebite]

he thinks an AC of 18 is ok for a lvl13 monk. it is not by far.

Well, it would be okay if the monk had a non-AC-based Hp Defense (like miss chance) or a crapload of Hp.  Unfortunately, the monk has neither without dumping a good deal of money into magic items.

And this is a problem, I think.  It seems to me that a good build should be playable in both at wbl and below wbl.  Also, I worry about any character that relies too heavily on consumables.  If a couple of battles go bad and the party doesn't have time to restock, you are in real danger of running out of gas.

yeah, especially on a character who is supposed to be the freaking energizer bunny. his joker is, in fact, a joke. no defences, pitiful offenses, and meager battlefield control.

And when you're in Ravenloft, shops stocking partially charged wands are in short supply.

"say, do you know where I could buy some partially charged wands?"

"try over there, next to the deathtrap. "


my personal opinion is the only character who should be wand reliant is an artificer.


EDIT:

Oh god, Ravenloft... Don't even get me started about that place...

well, guess where the partially charged wand monk is being tested?