Author Topic: Poking Holes in the Joker  (Read 29957 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2010, 11:41:20 AM »
I occasionally play Monks still, even knowing how bad they are.  What can I say?  I like the class, even if it sucks.  I always try and get my Monk fix approved, but occasionally I just want a guy that can outrun a horse without magic.

I do enjoy reading the percieved overpoweredness of some classes, though (Monk, Soulknife).  Always good for laughs.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2010, 01:02:03 PM »
occasionally I just want a guy that can outrun a horse without magic.
Can't play a monk, then, since their ability to move fast is (Su). Sorry.
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snakeman830

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2010, 01:13:23 PM »
occasionally I just want a guy that can outrun a horse without magic.
Can't play a monk, then, since their ability to move fast is (Su). Sorry.
Really? The Rules disagree with you on that.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2010, 01:15:36 PM »
occasionally I just want a guy that can outrun a horse without magic.
Can't play a monk, then, since their ability to move fast is (Su). Sorry.
Really? The Rules disagree with you on that.
They don't, actually. Somewhere it is pointed out that movement speeds above a certain level are all considered supernatural. I forget where, though...
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Anklebite

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2010, 01:47:05 PM »
occasionally I just want a guy that can outrun a horse without magic.
Can't play a monk, then, since their ability to move fast is (Su). Sorry.
Really? The Rules disagree with you on that.
They don't, actually. Somewhere it is pointed out that movement speeds above a certain level are all considered supernatural. I forget where, though...

that aside, a high level monk can really run fast.  sometimes, this is plot important. it is always hilarious.
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snakeman830

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2010, 01:52:36 PM »
occasionally I just want a guy that can outrun a horse without magic.
Can't play a monk, then, since their ability to move fast is (Su). Sorry.
Really? The Rules disagree with you on that.
They don't, actually. Somewhere it is pointed out that movement speeds above a certain level are all considered supernatural. I forget where, though...
Even so, the Monk's Fast Movement is explicitly called out as Extraodrinary.  Specific still trumps general.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2010, 01:57:56 PM »
occasionally I just want a guy that can outrun a horse without magic.
Can't play a monk, then, since their ability to move fast is (Su). Sorry.
Really? The Rules disagree with you on that.
They don't, actually. Somewhere it is pointed out that movement speeds above a certain level are all considered supernatural. I forget where, though...
Even so, the Monk's Fast Movement is explicitly called out as Extraodrinary.  Specific still trumps general.
Fair enough.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2010, 02:00:31 PM »
That and in a low low power game (like I ever play in those...) being able to use Airwalk Sandals and fling ki balls while raging can be fun :P
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JaronK

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2010, 10:50:49 PM »
Meh, I play Monks sometimes.  There's nothing wrong with the class, they're just low powered and not synergistic (but that means you've got options to chose from... attack and run, or full attack and flurry?).  Sure, claiming they can beat up Wizards all day long is silly, but it's also kinda boring to play in god mode all the time, and I like a challenge.  Of course, I also really enjoy playing commoners.

And you can certainly make a really powerful Monk if you optimize everything other than the Monk part.  Let's face it, a Feral Half Minotaur Water Orc Monk can be made all kinds of powerful.  The same is true for Commoners.

One thing though: I often see people complaining that AC is worthless above 10th level.  So why are people complaining about this guy's Monk having an AC of 18 at level 13?  If it doesn't matter anyway there's no sense trying to raise it.  He should be trying to get a miss chance or just get really good at killing the enemy instead of trying to pump his AC through the roof.

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2010, 11:04:48 PM »
AC does matter at high levels. If the GM uses Power Attack.

Solo

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2010, 11:05:32 PM »
Quote

One thing though: I often see people complaining that AC is worthless above 10th level.  So why are people complaining about this guy's Monk having an AC of 18 at level 13?
Is it the same people in both cases? If not, then you have your answer right there.

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Anklebite

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2010, 12:22:09 AM »
more AC is always a good thing.  yes, % miss chance does it better, but you can STACK THE BLOODY THINGS. it isn't an either or.  and, that being said, 2 more things: 1) the monk in question does not have miss chance, and 2) monks are famous for having really high ACs, and it considered one of the class' strongpoints; ignoring that is retarded.
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Solo

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2010, 12:23:48 AM »
Giacomo specifially said once that high AC was a strong point of the monk, and that in this case, his monk is a "tanking" variant.

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snakeman830

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2010, 12:24:35 AM »
more AC is always a good thing.  yes, % miss chance does it better, but you can STACK THE BLOODY THINGS. it isn't an either or.  and, that being said, 2 more things: 1) the monk in question does not have miss chance, and 2) monks are famous for having really high touch ACs, and it considered one of the class' strongpoints; ignoring that is retarded.
Fixed that for you ;)

And yeah, Giacomo obviously has no clue what he's talking about.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

JaronK

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2010, 12:35:36 AM »
Ah, I see.  I dunno, I think he's right to not worry about AC (even if he did it accidentally).  Of course, I also don't buy the idea of a Monk as a tank.  If I'm optimizing a Monk, there's going to be Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Battle Jump involved.  That way you can get very high damage (make sure to get large so you're not sucking up AoOs on the way in when charging), but your AC isn't worth considering (but that way you don't need to worry as much about Dex and Wis or spend much on AC either, and thus that portion of your WBL can go into hitting things and hurting things).  And you can be useful with Diplomacy when talking is the thing to do.

Not saying I agree with Giacomo's logic at all here... the UMD thing is rediculous, and his "tanking" Monk is incapable of tanking, plus the idea that he's an awesome Wizard killer is insane.  But you can make a pretty darn respectable Monk that's strong enough to play with the melee big boys like Warblades if your DM lets you really push the optimization (and the ToB player isn't optimizing like heck too).

I actually did back up one of his claims a while back, where he said a monk could do over 1000 damage a round.  Of course, the way he did it involved someone else buffing you, but with the Feral template and Shock Trooper, it's actually pretty easy.

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Anklebite

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2010, 12:39:13 AM »
Monk
Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Battle Jump

but then,  why the hell play a monk?


my favorite moments in playing monks is when the DM says "stunray incoming. does a thirty-seven hit your touch AC?" "nope."     (admittedly, 37 touch AC needs a bit of a high level, but it is so damn fun when you pull it off)
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JaronK

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2010, 12:41:44 AM »
but then,  why the hell play a monk?

Awesome flying kicks.  Come on, you have to admit it's a cool image, a crazed giant minotaur thing flying through the air and kicking enemies in the head so hard they explode.  Also, because it wouldn't be a challenge if I used Barbarian or something.  But seriously, it's all about the jump kicks.

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2010, 12:41:59 AM »
Hitting 1000 dmg per round is doable with a commoner and WBL.

Power Attack + Leap Attack + Headlong Rush + Battle Jump + Lance + Mounted + Valorious = retarded.

Using Hood tactics to do big numbers isn't impressive. Hood tech is irrelevant to class. Or race.

snakeman830

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2010, 12:43:32 AM »
One thing I've noticed is that Monks can actually be really good in Epic, at least defensively.  Reflecting all ranged attacks back at their sources is really, really cool.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

JaronK

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2010, 12:44:55 AM »
Hitting 1000 dmg per round is doable with a commoner and WBL.

Power Attack + Leap Attack + Headlong Rush + Battle Jump + Lance + Mounted + Valorious = retarded.

Using Hood tactics to do big numbers isn't impressive. Hood tech is irrelevant to class. Or race.

Well yeah, I did mention I've done this with Commoners before.  Though the Commoner needs to be Feral (as does the Monk) to get those kind of damage numbers... you need pounce after all.  And since when did basic chargers get called "hood tactics?"  Also, you can't have a Lance/Mounted + Leap Attack.  It's either Lance + Spirited Charge or Leap Attack + Battle Jump.

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