Author Topic: Poking Holes in the Joker  (Read 29842 times)

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Anklebite

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #160 on: March 06, 2010, 06:09:21 PM »
Additionally, although the "Joker" was proposed as a caster-slayer, I've yet to see any proof whatsoever that it would have the slightest chance against a druid of any level.  Although I'm no expert in this field, it seems to me that, even at 1st-4th level (the levels a monk has the greatest chance against a wizard and pre-wildshape), a druid would completely destroy any monk.

Hell, you don't even need the druid.  His animal companion can do the job just as easily.
true  :lmao
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Solo

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #161 on: March 06, 2010, 11:32:36 PM »
I postulate that this Dragon Disciple build is better than the Joker.

Ah.  So that was you.
I never said that Dragon Disciple was mine.

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Sydonis

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #162 on: March 07, 2010, 12:00:24 AM »
...a crazed giant minotaur thing flying through the air and kicking enemies in the head so hard they explode.

pure awesome right there.

Solo

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #163 on: March 07, 2010, 03:39:32 AM »
The average damage of the monk Giacomo's using is 4d6+7 (average 21), at an attack bonus of +16.

The Dragon Disciple has a damage of 2d4+11 (average 16) with his spiked chain at an attack of +19. By power attacking for three, he deals 2d4+17 (average 22) at an attack bonus of +16.

So, he deals slightly less damage than the Dragon Disciple. Except... that unarmed damage is calculated using his enlarged stats, while the Dragon Disciple is not enlarged or raging.

Dragon Disciple also has reach, can hit ghosts half the time, about 35 more hit points when not raging...

He has better reflex saves and evasion, and that's about it.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 03:47:16 AM by Solo »

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

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Anklebite

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #164 on: March 07, 2010, 03:41:32 AM »
The average damage of the monk Giacomo's using is 4d6+7 (average 21), at an attack bonus of +16.

The Dragon Disciple has a damage of 2d4+11 (average 16) with his spiked chain at an attack of +19. By power attacking for three, he deals 2d4+17 (average 22) at an attack bonus of +16.

So, he deals slightly less damage than the Dragon Disciple. Except... that unarmed damage is calculated using his enlarged stats, while the Dragon Disciple is not enlarged or raging.
not to mention the whole "reach" thing. oh, and actually having magic enhancements on your weapon. very handy.
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wackodraco

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #165 on: March 07, 2010, 05:17:53 AM »
I started reading the guide to the Joker with an attempt to give it serious thought.
About the time he started talking about the need for wands (expensive, basically eating your WBL to perform decently) or a primary caster to buff you made me realize that he proves himself wrong; it's the classic move used to make the fighter "good". By claiming that you need the "synergy" of outside buffing/item crafting indicates that the class in and of itself sucks.
His effort is laughable.
In addition, the "CORE'S BALANCED, NONCORE'S BROKENZ" fanboying is only backing himself into a corner. Sure, batman loses some toys (most notably, imo, Abrupt Jaunt), but monks are losing Jotunbrund and other size increasers that don't require spellcasting.
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Hijax

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #166 on: March 07, 2010, 06:53:19 AM »
I started reading the guide to the Joker with an attempt to give it serious thought.
About the time he started talking about the need for wands (expensive, basically eating your WBL to perform decently) or a primary caster to buff you made me realize that he proves himself wrong; it's the classic move used to make the fighter "good". By claiming that you need the "synergy" of outside buffing/item crafting indicates that the class in and of itself sucks.
His effort is laughable.
In addition, the "CORE'S BALANCED, NONCORE'S BROKENZ" fanboying is only backing himself into a corner. Sure, batman loses some toys (most notably, imo, Abrupt Jaunt), but monks are losing Jotunbrund and other size increasers that don't require spellcasting.

batman also loses celerity. thats a pretty big blow to him.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #167 on: March 07, 2010, 07:22:59 AM »
But has contingency.

So who cares?

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #168 on: March 07, 2010, 07:35:21 AM »
And Foresight...
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #169 on: March 07, 2010, 10:32:17 AM »
And a Freedom Of Movement ring that immune the wearer immune to grapple...

Edit
Dragon Disciple also has reach, can hit ghosts half the time, about 35 more hit points when not raging...
Wait, his build didn't even pick up bracers of justbuyanecklaceforunarmedstrikes for enchantments? If not theres a thread ender alone. Skipping on the power 6 is only persistent clerics, and... Well, him. Enough said.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 10:37:11 AM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
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[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #170 on: March 07, 2010, 01:54:36 PM »
Dragon Disciple also has reach, can hit ghosts half the time, about 35 more hit points when not raging...
Wait, his build didn't even pick up bracers of justbuyanecklaceforunarmedstrikes for enchantments? If not theres a thread ender alone. Skipping on the power 6 is only persistent clerics, and... Well, him. Enough said.
His current monk doesn't have it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 04:43:38 AM by Solo »

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Solo

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #171 on: March 08, 2010, 04:43:58 AM »
Incidentally, how is that dungeoncrawl going?

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Anklebite

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #172 on: March 08, 2010, 04:55:43 AM »
Incidentally, how is that dungeoncrawl going?
he keeps getting pwned. it is very entertaining.


have a link. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095

EDIT: he recently has been getting in trouble with the DM for his interpretations of the movement bonus rules.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #173 on: March 08, 2010, 07:36:41 AM »
Anyone interested in collaborating on some builds for the Test of Spite and seeing how we can do as a team?

A team of lesser (abusible version) planetouched + savage progressions would get quite far.
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Prime32

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #174 on: March 08, 2010, 10:41:50 AM »
Incidentally, how is that dungeoncrawl going?
he keeps getting pwned. it is very entertaining.


have a link. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095

EDIT: he recently has been getting in trouble with the DM for his interpretations of the movement bonus rules.
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Hijax

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #175 on: March 08, 2010, 10:54:40 AM »
Anyone interested in collaborating on some builds for the Test of Spite and seeing how we can do as a team?

A team of lesser (abusible version) planetouched + savage progressions would get quite far.

yeah!


Incidentally, how is that dungeoncrawl going?
he keeps getting pwned. it is very entertaining.


have a link. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095

EDIT: he recently has been getting in trouble with the DM for his interpretations of the movement bonus rules.
Quote from: Giacomo
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Anklebite

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #176 on: March 08, 2010, 01:01:29 PM »
Anyone interested in collaborating on some builds for the Test of Spite and seeing how we can do as a team?

A team of lesser (abusible version) planetouched + savage progressions would get quite far.
I've already got three build ideas hammered out. one is a cerebremancer action economy abuser, another is a wizard with hilarious dispel capabilities(auto take 10 on CL checks, so auto dispels CL21 and below with a NORMAL dispel magic. also has greater dispel and spelltheft.).

the third, however, is a certain caster level monster I think you all know.  :devil
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #177 on: March 08, 2010, 01:06:09 PM »
Anyone interested in collaborating on some builds for the Test of Spite and seeing how we can do as a team?

A team of lesser (abusible version) planetouched + savage progressions would get quite far.

Where do i sign up :P?
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j0lt

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #178 on: March 08, 2010, 01:15:52 PM »
Anyone interested in collaborating on some builds for the Test of Spite and seeing how we can do as a team?

A team of lesser (abusible version) planetouched + savage progressions would get quite far.

I'm interested, though I'll be moving across the Pacific ocean at the end of the month and I'm not sure how reliably I'll be able to access the internet for a while.
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Anklebite

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Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #179 on: March 08, 2010, 07:44:26 PM »
my favorite thing about the joker is that this so-called "caster killer" is completely hosed by a dispel magic. doesn't even have to be a high CL dispel; a caster level 5 one will hose about half his buffs. a caster level 10 one will ruin pretty much all his buffs(this is assuming that CL=his monk level).  a greater dispel magic, CL14+, will pretty much always auto-hose his buffs. rather hilarious really; his plan is "to attack, waste their spellslots, and run away". yet, the wizard spends less resources screwing over the giamonk than the giamonk uses per attempt.  :lmao
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