Poking Holes in the Joker

[Anklebite]

well written and accurate arguments

they must hate you over there  

You should see my "debates" (and I use the term loosely) with YourImmortalDM and his "psions are broken and wizards are fine (when nerfed to oblivion and played like morons)." spiels.

GitP entertains me vastly, but I don't think I would ever try to actually host a debate there.  after all, a site that bans solo can't be allowing the full range of argument.

EDIT: rereading the giamonk thread for kicks, why are all the people who make funny points listed as banned?


EDIT#2: hahaha, just did a bit of mental math. a monk2/cleric3/wizard3/MT rest core only build does everything the giamonk wishes he could do, but better.  seriously, when a core mystic theruge outdoes you, it's time to quit.

[dark_samuari]

I tried reading that old thread from GitP but I couldn't take it...

[Dictum Mortuum]

he tries to beat casters at their own game; needless to say, he is not successful.  

That reminds me of Aelryinth (or something).

[JaronK]

Ceteris paribus is the latin name for this. Meaning, "all other things being equal."

It's logically identical to the conversation about Ubercharging. It has nothing to do with the class. Anyone with feats can do it.

Sure.  And the difference was that I was saying Monks could be powerful enough to function if they used ubercharging tactics... not that Monks were a powerful class because they could use ubercharging tactics.  I'll fully acknowledge that Monks are on the low end of the power spectrum, and that even Commoners can get quite potent with those tactics.  Of course, Commoners also get the best flaw of all time (infested with chickens).  Man, Infested with Chickens + Gnomish Quickrazor = hilarity.

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

well written and accurate arguments

they must hate you over there 

You should see my "debates" (and I use the term loosely) with YourImmortalDM and his "psions are broken and wizards are fine (when nerfed to oblivion and played like morons)." spiels.

GitP entertains me vastly, but I don't think I would ever try to actually host a debate there.  after all, a site that bans solo can't be allowing the full range of argument.

If I didn't know any better, I'd absolutely swear YourImmortalDM is Giacomo using a different account. YIDM was at least as bad.

EDIT: rereading the giamonk thread for kicks, why are all the people who make funny points listed as banned?

{Scrubbed}

[Havok4]

You should see my "debates" (and I use the term loosely) with YourImmortalDM and his "psions are broken and wizards are fine (when nerfed to oblivion and played like morons)." spiels.

Could you provide a link. That sounds hilarious.

[snakeman830]

he tries to beat casters at their own game; needless to say, he is not successful.  

That reminds me of Aelryinth (or something).

From what I've seen, Aelryinth has a pretty good grasp of the rules...until melee gets involved.  Then he seems to forget everything and makes wild claims that he can't back up.

[Lycanthromancer]

You should see my "debates" (and I use the term loosely) with YourImmortalDM and his "psions are broken and wizards are fine (when nerfed to oblivion and played like morons)." spiels.

Could you provide a link. That sounds hilarious.

Looks like the whole thread was scrubbed from existence. Can't find it either on the WotC boards or via Google.

It was called "Is Psionics Too Much," posted by YourImmortalDM, and I tried not to get involved, and ended up practically taking over half the thread. Oops.

[Havok4]

You should see my "debates" (and I use the term loosely) with YourImmortalDM and his "psions are broken and wizards are fine (when nerfed to oblivion and played like morons)." spiels.

Could you provide a link. That sounds hilarious.

Looks like the whole thread was scrubbed from existence. Can't find it either on the WotC boards or via Google.

It was called "Is Psionics Too Much," posted by YourImmortalDM, and I tried not to get involved, and ended up practically taking over half the thread. Oops.

Thanks for checking.

[Prime32]

Because Roland St. Jude has absolutely no sense of humor, overreacts to anything that even suggests that it's brushing up against the rules (whether it breaks them or not), plays favorites, and really has nobody to keep him in check (as Rich Burlew is busy with his own stuff, and you really can't complain to anyone but Roland St. Jude about Roland St. Jude's behavior).

Bleh.

Still, his mind control powers have become something of a m-There is no mind control, I will go back to my fun.

[dark_samuari]

A Thought!

So why don't you guys (or all of us) try to out-do the Joker? I wager we build a core-only monk that exceeds past Sir Giacomo's own and than using that show how it can contribute to a party efficiently but still isn't strong enough to hold it's own against a wizard?

So breaking it down:
1.) Using Core-only construct a 9th-level or 10th-level Monk (28-point buy) that solidly contributes to the party.
2.) Show how our monk is in every way efficient to Sir Giacomo's monk.
3.) Illustrate how our monk is still incapable of defeating a Core-only wizard of equal status (9th-level or 10th-level with 28-point buy initially).

I feel, if done correctly, it could be a solid defense against his thoughts/opinions on the whole issue of monk's supremacy.

[Solo]

I have a core only Barbarian/Sorcerer/DD that I feel outdoes his monk. I'll post it when TTW comes back online.

[Anklebite]

ok then, if it has to be core only and include monk(seldom a good idea), then here are some options:

monk1/ cleric or druid 9:  a cleric or druid with monk powers. not bad at all.

monk2/rogue8 or something along those lines.  can actually use UMD properly.

monk2/ranger8: still better. TWF with your fists if you want to.  use crappy animal companion to flank. enjoy favored enemy bonus. use meager spells.  +9 BAB.

rogue10 with improved unarmed strike and improved grapple:  use 10th level special ability for skill mastery. include UMD in mastered skills. be better than the giamonk and everything the giamonk is supposed to do.

commoner10 with leadership. weeee.

monk10 with improved natural attack, improved grapple, improved initative, combat reflexes and leadership.  take stunning fist, improved trip and deflect arrows as bonus feats. max wis, get dex to 15, and whatever you want really. don't waste time trying to UMD.   make cohort a caster. have him buff you in combat, preserving your action economy.


these are a few sample builds that are stronger than the giamonk. do whatever with them.

[Prime32]

I feel, if done correctly, it could be a solid defense against his thoughts/opinions on the whole issue of monk's supremacy.

How exactly does making a monk strong prove that it's weak?

[Solo]

It proves that the Giacomonk is weak.

[dark_samuari]

I'm going to try to construct something to match his regiment. Right now I'm trying to see what his restrictions are (that he has issued to himself).

Core-only
Only straight-classed builds
28 point-buy
Appropriate character wealth

I think that covers everything, any that I missed?

[Anklebite]

No straight-classed builds

was pretty sure it was straight classed.  think he might be averse to multiclassing.

[dark_samuari]

I feel, if done correctly, it could be a solid defense against his thoughts/opinions on the whole issue of monk's supremacy.

How exactly does making a monk strong prove that it's weak?

My intent is to counter-act his monk by both providing a more efficient monk build and than by using that show how even it can't compete with a wizard. If he agrees to the first point (that our presented monk is better than his in every practical way) than he'll have a considerably harder time arguing against the second point. If done right it will corner him into saying that the Joker is specifically presented to combat wizards, which isn't practical in any game (thus defeating his other points of the monk being able to contribute to the party).

It's a little hazy though...

[dark_samuari]

No straight-classed builds

was pretty sure it was straight classed.  think he might be averse to multiclassing.

Fixed.

[Prime32]

If multiclassed builds are allowed, I suggest equipping them with cheap items like rings of feather falling which emulate the monk's higher-level class features. Give them everything a monk has, and more. 2 levels of paladin can make up the difference in saving throws.

EDIT: Ninja'd.


Monk without monk
Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 10/Blackguard 2/Dragon disciple 2
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Stunning Fist
Items: +1 adamantine gauntlet of speed, Monk's belt, Periapt of health, Ring of evasion, Ring of feather falling (optional)

Rogue and assassin have UMD as class skills. Use dragon disciple to get two extra 4th-level assassin spell slots, and put dimension door in one of them. Death Attack emulates Quivering Palm. Your DD natural weapons, gauntlet and +16 BAB emulate flurry. The blackguard's Dark Blessing improves your saving throws, and CLW 1/day makes up for Wholeness of Body. Still rather MAD, unfortunately (needs 14 Int for assassin spells, plus Wis 11 and good Cha for blackguard).