Author Topic: Poking Holes in the Joker  (Read 29841 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #100 on: March 05, 2010, 02:24:25 AM »
He argues from a position of ignorance. He bases his builds on either houserules, complete misunderstanding of how the rules work, or complete fabrications. For instance, he believes (believed?) that a character is entitled to finding partially-charged wands of whatever spell he wants, in whatever quantity of charges he wants, whenever he wants (such as finding or buying a wand of divine power with 3 charges at level 3). Yes, most wands will be only partially charged, but wands in general are somewhat rare, are always made fully-charged, and unless you make or commission them yourself, finding wands of most spells will be difficult, at best.

He uses double-standards to an alarming degree Such as restricting his detractors to core-only when he himself ignores this stipulation whenever it pleases him (when core-only is almost never a facet of the topic at hand). He seems to be completely unable to move away from the "core-only at all times except for me" mindset.

He constantly misinterprets (purposefully, I'd wager) other peoples' comments, and argues strawmen. Constantly. Either his reading comprehension is abysmal, or he knows he can't defend his position and so moves the goalposts to something he can defend (though even then often using faulty logic in numerous and myriad ways).

He seems unable to re-evaluate his position, or learn from his mistakes. "I'm right even if I'm wrong" appears to be his worldview, and he continues arguing his points even when they're shown to be inarguably wrong.

He's also rather stupid, but that's not a mistake as much as it is an unfortunate consequence of having been dropped on his soft, spongecake-like head too many times.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 02:30:37 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #101 on: March 05, 2010, 02:28:52 AM »
Or of being European.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #102 on: March 05, 2010, 02:34:38 AM »
Or of being European.
Careful, Solo. Wouldn't want to cause an international incident by insulting an entire continent, would you?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #103 on: March 05, 2010, 02:35:07 AM »
well written and accurate arguments

they must hate you over there  :D


I myself used to be of the "monks > wizards" crowd(hey hey, I grew out of it dammit; namely, in the first thread I read about it), so I understand why he tries to hard to argue it; the only problem is, that it is futile.   so, instead of trying to optimize a monk, he tries to beat casters at their own game; needless to say, he is not successful.   for instance, in his "The Monkening"(the name of the PbP they are using to prove him full of shit), he is getting beaten by a druid with no wildshape and an evoker than banned conjuration and transmutation. frankly, that is just embarrassing.  the fourth char is a sneak attacker, who is also proving far better than his monk.  if he, instead of constantly focusing on crossclassing UMD and partially charged wands,  made a bloody monk and played it right, he would come out of it alot better.


Or of being European.
the hells wrong with being European? I ask on behalf of my direct viking lineage.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #104 on: March 05, 2010, 02:36:41 AM »
Careful, Solo. Wouldn't want to cause an international incident by insulting an entire continent, would you?
What are they going to do, ineffectually sanction me?

Quote
the hells wrong with being European? I ask on behalf of my direct viking lineage.
You are not a Mongol, or descended from one.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2010, 02:40:10 AM »
You are not a Mongol, or descended from one.

I fail to see how that is a bad thing.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2010, 02:43:50 AM »

Everyone else is a bitch.


[spoiler] ;) :p :P[/spoiler]

But on topic, he just fundamentally doesn't understand the game and refuses to listen.

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #107 on: March 05, 2010, 02:48:42 AM »
 :twitch

ohfuckohfuckohfuck muuuust maaake wiiill saaaaaaave....... *nat1*





fundamentally doesn't understand






please no one take offence.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Flay Crimsonwind

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1310
  • Watching the World Burn in Magnificence
    • Email
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #108 on: March 05, 2010, 02:52:34 AM »
:twitch

ohfuckohfuckohfuck muuuust maaake wiiill saaaaaaave....... *nat1*





fundamentally doesn't understand






please no one take offence.
It's a fucking eagle, of course it doesn't, no matter what his damned spell may grant a bonus in!  :p

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #109 on: March 05, 2010, 02:58:16 AM »
Yeah. We got stupid health care. We had Bush. We are below Saudi Arabia in the acceptance of the evolutionary theory.

But we also have Lady Liberty. Uncle Sam. Thomas Jefferson. Captain America. Hot Dogs. More Nukes. Landed on the moon. Roosevelt.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #110 on: March 05, 2010, 03:00:35 AM »
Mistake 1: He believes that because Monks can get access to polycheese, that the game is balanced.

This is something I call the Class X Fallacy.  It's whenever you argue that a class is balanced or powerful because of something unrelated to that class, such that any class could have the same argument for it and be just as true.  For example, "Monks are powerful because they can use UMD."  That's a Class X Fallacy, because Monks have no special abilities that make them any better at using UMD than any other class.  It's not a class skill, they have absolutely no charisma synergy, and have no abilities that make it better.  I could just as easily say "Commoners are powerful because they can use UMD."  While in game UMD can make someone powerful (assuming the DM lets you have the items you want) the Monk class isn't what makes that work, and thus it has no bearing on how powerful Monks are in relation to other classes.  Meanwhile, the statement "Factotums are powerful because they can use UMD" is not a Class X Fallacy... Factotums get it as a class skill, and can boost their UMD skill once per day to incredible heights, plus they can take Craft Wand and make their own items to UMD.  Since other classes wouldn't get nearly as much benefit, it's not a Class X Fallacy to say that about Factotums, for example.

Quote
Mistake B: He believes that Monk is not MAD, because they can get feats such as Improved Trip without needing 13 Int or higher.
 

That's a... um... just being wrong fallacy?  Making stuff up fallacy?  God, I dunno, Monks are kind of the poster child for MAD, along with Paladins.

JaronK

Flay Crimsonwind

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1310
  • Watching the World Burn in Magnificence
    • Email
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2010, 03:01:27 AM »
Yeah. We got stupid health care. We had Bush. We are below Saudi Arabia in the acceptance of the evolutionary theory.

But we also have Lady Liberty. Uncle Sam. Thomas Jefferson. Captain America. Hot Dogs. More Nukes. Landed on the moon. Roosevelt.
California sun... norcal chicks..... Disneyland (the original, way better).....

Quote
Mistake B: He believes that Monk is not MAD, because they can get feats such as Improved Trip without needing 13 Int or higher.
 

That's a... um... just being wrong fallacy?  Making stuff up fallacy?  God, I dunno, Monks are kind of the poster child for MAD, along with Paladins.

JaronK
Wow..... he doesn't understand why people think the monk has MAD, huh?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 03:02:58 AM by Flay Crimsonwind »

Mushroom

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
    • Email
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2010, 03:03:38 AM »

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2010, 03:03:43 AM »
He argues from a position of ignorance. He bases his builds on either houserules, complete misunderstanding of how the rules work, or complete fabrications. For instance, he believes (believed?) that a character is entitled to finding partially-charged wands of whatever spell he wants, in whatever quantity of charges he wants, whenever he wants (such as finding or buying a wand of divine power with 3 charges at level 3). Yes, most wands will be only partially charged, but wands in general are somewhat rare, are always made fully-charged, and unless you make or commission them yourself, finding wands of most spells will be difficult, at best.

So, to generalize, the mistake there is assuming everyone plays by your house rules and in your campaign setting.  It's wrong because frankly it's highly unlikely that any one person will use your house rules or campaign settings.  And actually, the "everyone has the same magic item availability as I do" assumption is quite common.  I've seen it with many posters.  This is why it's so critical to discuss things in terms of RAW when you're talking on forums.  RAW is more likely to be used in any given game than any house rules.

Quote
He uses double-standards to an alarming degree Such as restricting his detractors to core-only when he himself ignores this stipulation whenever it pleases him (when core-only is almost never a facet of the topic at hand). He seems to be completely unable to move away from the "core-only at all times except for me" mindset.

He constantly misinterprets (purposefully, I'd wager) other peoples' comments, and argues strawmen. Constantly. Either his reading comprehension is abysmal, or he knows he can't defend his position and so moves the goalposts to something he can defend (though even then often using faulty logic in numerous and myriad ways).

He seems unable to re-evaluate his position, or learn from his mistakes. "I'm right even if I'm wrong" appears to be his worldview, and he continues arguing his points even when they're shown to be inarguably wrong.

Yeah that's just lame.  The only lesson to learn here other than "don't be dumb" is "consider the possibility that you're wrong, and make sure you understand the other posters before you disagree with them."

JaronK

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2010, 03:12:32 AM »
This is something I call the Class X Fallacy.  It's whenever you argue that a class is balanced or powerful because of something unrelated to that class, such that any class could have the same argument for it and be just as true.  For example, "Monks are powerful because they can use UMD."  That's a Class X Fallacy, because Monks have no special abilities that make them any better at using UMD than any other class.  It's not a class skill, they have absolutely no charisma synergy, and have no abilities that make it better.  I could just as easily say "Commoners are powerful because they can use UMD."  While in game UMD can make someone powerful (assuming the DM lets you have the items you want) the Monk class isn't what makes that work, and thus it has no bearing on how powerful Monks are in relation to other classes.  Meanwhile, the statement "Factotums are powerful because they can use UMD" is not a Class X Fallacy... Factotums get it as a class skill, and can boost their UMD skill once per day to incredible heights, plus they can take Craft Wand and make their own items to UMD.  Since other classes wouldn't get nearly as much benefit, it's not a Class X Fallacy to say that about Factotums, for example.

Ceteris paribus is the latin name for this. Meaning, "all other things being equal."

It's logically identical to the conversation about Ubercharging. It has nothing to do with the class. Anyone with feats can do it.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2010, 03:15:44 AM »
Roosevelt landed on the moon.
Fixed.

Because Teddy was a Real Man. He beat up Dracula in his secret lair on the moon.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 12:47:26 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2010, 03:17:09 AM »
Yeah. We got stupid health care. We had Bush. We are below Saudi Arabia in the acceptance of the evolutionary theory.

But we also have Lady Liberty. Uncle Sam. Thomas Jefferson. Captain America. Hot Dogs. More Nukes. Landed on the moon. Roosevelt.
lets not derail this with a country war.

but, just to even it out: Norway has universal healthcare, real public transit, is the black metal capital of the world, has more total winter olympic gold metals than the US(big friggin suprise), a higher GPD per capita, and hallucinogenic shrooms grow wild.  I think that evens the argument, don't you? now, lets stop this before we go all out.  this thread is about the fail of giacomo, and how to learn from such hardcore fail.


oh and our fat chick ratio is below one per thousand.




EDIT: linky to the giacomo guide, if you need more ammo. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 03:23:11 AM by Anklebite »
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2010, 03:34:08 AM »
Whatever you do, don't confuse Giacomo with your fancy schmancy newfangle "math."

It huwts his po' widdle bwain.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Anklebite

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2009
  • I shall play you the song of my people.
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2010, 03:41:12 AM »
his rebuttal is the best part. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4334737#post4334737


he also states that a factotum cannot outgrapple a monk. heh.   today's lesson: "brains over brawn" lets a factotum add his primary stat, int, to grapple checks. I think.
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
Pioneer of the Ultimate Magus + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus combo

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Poking Holes in the Joker
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2010, 04:44:05 AM »
well written and accurate arguments

they must hate you over there  :D
You should see my "debates" (and I use the term loosely) with YourImmortalDM and his "psions are broken and wizards are fine (when nerfed to oblivion and played like morons)." spiels.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 04:54:44 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]