Author Topic: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!  (Read 5451 times)

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RealMarkP

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Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« on: March 01, 2010, 07:09:37 PM »
Hello again. I just started a campaign with some of my friends. Both myself and the player that's playing a monk are fairly optimized, however, the player mentioned that he feels inferior to both the Monk and I because we are so versatile and powerful. He asked me for help but since I never played a Knight, I feel that I need some help. So, how can we make him into a fine meatshield/tank?

Race: Human
Class: Knight 1
Feats: Toughness, Endurance
Equipment: Longsword, Heavy Steel Shield, Full Plate.
Stats: 15 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 11 Wis, 12 Int, 12 Cha

Which direction can he go in, and also, what equipment should he be looking into (magical)?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 07:14:58 PM by RealMarkP »

Solo

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 07:11:15 PM »
Get rid of Toughness, and give him a reach weapon.

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RealMarkP

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2010, 07:15:56 PM »
Get rid of Toughness, and give him a reach weapon.

he already took the above feats and equipment. Shield and board is what he likes, however.

Anklebite

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2010, 07:27:27 PM »
Get rid of Toughness, and give him a reach weapon.

he already took the above feats and equipment. Shield and board is what he likes, however.
tell him to ask for you help next time before he picks feats. those are ass choices.

if he likes sword and board, I can't help but feel he picked the wrong path. generally, you either go a) two weapon fighting, just with shield bashing as a secondary, or b) tome of battle, because then the difference is negligible, or c)shield charger build, making use of the shield feats in complete warrior and players handbook 2.

if he wants to be an optimized sword and board, he needs to go one of those paths. unless he decides to "turtle", which can occasionally work on a knight base class. if so, he should work on improving the DC of his knight's challenge, and to take the goad feat from races of stone(at least, I think that is where it's from).
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RealMarkP

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2010, 07:46:30 PM »
Quote
tell him to ask for you help next time before he picks feats. those are ass choices.
He mentioned he wants my help. I might be able to convince the DM to let him change his feats. One feat that caught my eye was Stand Still. Thoughts on that one?

Quote
if he likes sword and board, I can't help but feel he picked the wrong path. generally, you either go a) two weapon fighting, just with shield bashing as a secondary, or b) tome of battle, because then the difference is negligible, or c)shield charger build, making use of the shield feats in complete warrior and players handbook 2.
The shield feats might be nice to look into. Possibly by applying a shield spike with conjunction to charge/bash.

Quote
if he wants to be an optimized sword and board, he needs to go one of those paths. unless he decides to "turtle", which can occasionally work on a knight base class. if so, he should work on improving the DC of his knight's challenge, and to take the goad feat from races of stone(at least, I think that is where it's from).
Assume that he will go the Sword/Shield way, what feats (or PrCs/classes) would you recommend to optimize that. Between Stand Still, Goad, and his various knight abilities, he might be alright for 'aggro' accumulation.

Anklebite

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2010, 07:52:00 PM »
Quote
tell him to ask for you help next time before he picks feats. those are ass choices.
He mentioned he wants my help. I might be able to convince the DM to let him change his feats. One feat that caught my eye was Stand Still. Thoughts on that one?

Quote
if he likes sword and board, I can't help but feel he picked the wrong path. generally, you either go a) two weapon fighting, just with shield bashing as a secondary, or b) tome of battle, because then the difference is negligible, or c)shield charger build, making use of the shield feats in complete warrior and players handbook 2.
The shield feats might be nice to look into. Possibly by applying a shield spike with conjunction to charge/bash.

Quote
if he wants to be an optimized sword and board, he needs to go one of those paths. unless he decides to "turtle", which can occasionally work on a knight base class. if so, he should work on improving the DC of his knight's challenge, and to take the goad feat from races of stone(at least, I think that is where it's from).
Assume that he will go the Sword/Shield way, what feats (or PrCs/classes) would you recommend to optimize that. Between Stand Still, Goad, and his various knight abilities, he might be alright for 'aggro' accumulation.

look into a kusari-gama, or any other 1handed reach weapon. seriously, reach+standstill+aggro = locked down mobs that are completely screwed.  if he gets reach, he might want to add in the mage slayer line too.


EDIT: as for shield feats, go for shield ward, shield charge, improved shield bash, and shield slam.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 07:53:33 PM by Anklebite »
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RealMarkP

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2010, 08:25:05 PM »
Quote
look into a kusari-gama, or any other 1handed reach weapon. seriously, reach+standstill+aggro = locked down mobs that are completely screwed.  if he gets reach, he might want to add in the mage slayer line too.
Any thoughts on Robilar's Gambit? Would it work for a knight?


Anklebite

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2010, 09:04:04 PM »
Quote
look into a kusari-gama, or any other 1handed reach weapon. seriously, reach+standstill+aggro = locked down mobs that are completely screwed.  if he gets reach, he might want to add in the mage slayer line too.
Any thoughts on Robilar's Gambit? Would it work for a knight?


it would, but it requires BAB+12. gonna take a while to get that.
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RealMarkP

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2010, 09:14:24 PM »
Another question.

Short of stacking on plate, is there any other way I can increase AC through feats? Dodge is a biggie.

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2010, 09:26:47 PM »
look into a kusari-gama, or any other 1handed reach weapon. seriously, reach+standstill+aggro = locked down mobs that are completely screwed.  if he gets reach, he might want to add in the mage slayer line too.

whats aggro?

Anklebite

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2010, 09:32:44 PM »
look into a kusari-gama, or any other 1handed reach weapon. seriously, reach+standstill+aggro = locked down mobs that are completely screwed.  if he gets reach, he might want to add in the mage slayer line too.

whats aggro?
colloquial term for "pissing monsters off". generally, the ability to force your opponents to attack you. the knight's challenge does this, as does goad.

Another question.

Short of stacking on plate, is there any other way I can increase AC through feats? Dodge is a biggie.

stack on plate. don't take dodge.   full plate + heavy shield = +10AC before magic enhancements.   if need be, buy the cleric a rod of chaining, and attach defending armor spikes to your shield.  that way, when he buffs up with GMW, everyone gets it. and you can transfer the +x from that to AC with defending.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2010, 09:33:20 PM »
MMO term but here it is referring to the Knights Challenge ability. It makes the monsters want to attack him and leave the squishy targets alone. Since he is playing a turtle style character his role should be to get the attention of the most dangerous thing on the field and keep it focused on him and ignoring that guy in the back waving his fingers around.
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RealMarkP

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 10:54:34 PM »
How far into the Knight class would you recommend he goes? Are there any PrCs that are worth taking?

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2010, 11:02:09 PM »
He really should stop taking knight after 3 levels for the difficult terrain ability and go into crusader (tome of battle). After that he should use a reach weapon focus on attacks of opportunity as with that ability and the crusader thicket of blades stance all movement around him will provoke AoOs. With stand still he could lock down the enemies around him and keep them from moveing at all.

RealMarkP

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2010, 01:14:06 AM »
Here is what I'm thinking. 4 Levels of Knight with 2 levels of the Shield Bearer Fighter variant in dispersed - mainly for bonus feats and Tower shield proficiency. Followed

1. Knight 1
2. Fighter 1 [Shield Bearer Variant]
3. Knight 2
4. Knight 3
5. Knight 4 (For Test of Mettle)
6. Fighter 2 [Shield Bearer Variant]
7. Crusader 1->20

Would this suffice or would you recommend a PrC?

mealloc

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2010, 01:33:28 AM »
I am also a newbie playing among veteran Mix/Maxers, and I've been thinking about playing a knight based character in a campain my friend is about to start.  As such, I fear that I may be following an RP concept to a relatively nerfed character in comparison to the Factotoms and Psy warriors that the rest of the group will be composed of...  Hopefully, those of you on this board might be able to spot any potential flaws in my build and also be able to suggest a post lvl10 progression for me.

What I am aiming for is a Good aligned 1)Human Sheild, 2) BattleField controller 3)Passive Enhancer.  We are banned from  using tier1 and tier2 classes, and any class with a full caster progression.  

I don't know the point buy, so I can only offer my attribute priority, and I don't know what feat-grant schedule is either, so I'll assume it 1/3 levels.   Large races may be banned,  Good characters only.  All Non-third party books. Assuming Flaws are allowed. Here's what I have so far...

Human (For Favored Class:Any) with a Draconic Template
CHA>DEX>STR>CON>INT>WIS
1:Marshal  (MH)                Feats:EWP(Spiked Chain), Human Bonus:Combat Reflexes, flaw<Shakey>=>Martial
                                        Training(Vanguard Strike), Flaw<Inattentive>=>Martial Stance:(Thicket of Blades),
                                        Bonus:Skill Focus=Diplomacy, <Minor Aura>
2:Marshal                          <Major Aura>
3:Dragon Shaman (PHBII26)   <Dragon Aura>,Stand Still
4:Knight                           <Fighting Challenge>
5:Knight                           <Bonus:Mounted Combat>
6:Knight                           <Bulwark of Defense>,Animal Cohort <or> leadership
7:Knight                           <Test of Mettle>,
8:knight                           <Bonus:Ride-by-Attack>,Vigilant Defender
9:Squire of Legend  (CC111)<Paragon:Orcus>,<Speak with Animals>, (Open Feat?)
10:Squire of Legend           <Lesser Restoration>
11:Squire of Legend           <Grant 10 energy resistance to ally>

So, I plan to lock down the field and have my teammates either attack with reach or stand right next to me so I can protect them.  I use Test of Mettle to bring them and lock them down, and on my turn, I'd like to be able to trip them.  (Can I get Improved Trip without Expertise and 13 int?)  My Auras will be +CHA to Trip/BullRush/Disarm, +1 Damage from Marshal, and +1 to Damage from Dragon Shaman.  I also intend to get Steadfast boots so I can set against charges with a spiked Chain.   If I get surrounded, I plan to use my high CHA and Intimidate skill to demoralize using the Never Outnumbered Skill trick.

I'm also considering taking 9 levels of Mythic Exemplar, Reikhardt(CC 86) for it's aura-like abilities, but it seems like it's just a high cost, weaker bard. (Can't take any bard levels, as it's Chaotic pre-req conflicts with knight.)

Besides two or three items and CHA, what are alternative strategies for keeping my Knight Challenge DC's up?

I'd also like to find ways to increase my reach, but I'm race limited by favored classes.  

Lastly, what's a good way to get water breathing for this character?  Is another two levels in Dragon Shaman worth that, or is there a better way?

Thank you for your suggestions in advance.


RealMarkP

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2010, 03:47:24 PM »
One last thing, I seem to be short one feat. I've already taken 2 levels of Fighter. Are there any classes or PrCs that give a bonus feat at first level. My alternative is to waste 2 more levels in fighter.

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 05:49:36 PM »
You can't take Martial Stance at level 1. You still need to meet the IL requirements.

mealloc

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 07:27:03 PM »
Well, the Stance Feat can be slid out later, that's not a problem.  I was just looking glaring weaknesses like, well, base effectiveness.  I haven't seen much game play yet, and I don't know what will really make a difference when standing between two power gamers.

And to re-iterate, any suggestions on making this more flexible, such as effective synergies involving future feats, PrC's, or equipment would be appreciated.

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Re: Max-a-Knight: Build me a Tank!
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2010, 08:53:26 PM »
Well, the Stance Feat can be slid out later, that's not a problem.  I was just looking glaring weaknesses like, well, base effectiveness.  I haven't seen much game play yet, and I don't know what will really make a difference when standing between two power gamers.

And to re-iterate, any suggestions on making this more flexible, such as effective synergies involving future feats, PrC's, or equipment would be appreciated.

Have you considered going Crusader 20? It sounds like a plain-Jane Crusader is exactly what you are looking for. There isn't a class that is as good of a human shield as a Crusader, Crusaders have access to Thicket of Blades, one of the most valuable abilities for any melee battlefield controller, and they are also a great help to their team in other ways (throwing healing strikes around, stunning enemies, etc).