Author Topic: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive  (Read 20002 times)

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PhoneLobster

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2010, 06:51:46 PM »
Actually the time rule is another terrible rule in the wealth rules.

Because it is actually conditional only on "less common items".

So your DC 22 desktop PC only actually takes 22 hours to buy (and apparently no actual time to sell) if and only if the GM decides PCs are "less common objects".

This has several problems.

1) It is not at all unreasonable to think that a gun is a "less common object". So even if you want one of the cheapest guns around like a Derringer... it (potentially) takes 14 hours to buy one.

And no that isn't 5 minutes plus a 24 hour cooling off period, that is infact two solid working days of the traditional 40 hour week spent actually shopping. And it doesn't matter if you don't give a damn if you buy a derringer or a Ruger or whatever. You still have to spend days buying it.

Indeed if shopping "as intended" you almost certainly DON'T have a wealth bonus of 14+ so you either need to spend 14 hours, roll and cross your fingers in fear that you will have to do it again, or take 10 and spend ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY HOURS!

Yes. Thats right, it takes potentially twenty solid working days to buy the cheapest pistol without a chance of failure if you aren't abusing the wealth system. Thats even with a license even in a gun store in a country with only limited fire arms regulation.

2) In order to use this rule to try and put a crimp on system breaking wealth transactions you have to start defining EVERYTHING as "less common objects".

Just having characters get to wealth 15 or so at no cost is basically breaking the wealth system from its intended function. And you can do that with items as "rare" as brief cases, hand bags and ink jet printers.

So if you declare that sort of thing "less common objects" you seriously create a scenario where it literally takes a full 8 hour working day to buy jeans and a t-shirt (casual clothing item).


So anyway the time issues on wealth are a whole DIFFERENT kind of broken to to the infinite wealth loops and tricks that prevent any wealth loss ever. Indeed it is potentially a WORSE kind of breakage of the system because it screws all those players trying to do the right thing because now a casual stop to pick up a wind breaker for a mildly cold light house adventure TAKES SIX HOURS.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 06:57:44 PM by PhoneLobster »

Garryl

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2010, 09:20:57 PM »
Taking 10 only takes the normal amount of time. It's only taking 20 that takes 20 times as long. Taking 10 is just making a single, perfectly average attempt in the time of a single, average attempt. Getting said DC 14 pistol at a +4 Wealth bonus or higher would only take 14 hours under normal circumstances, not 140.

Indeed if shopping "as intended" you almost certainly DON'T have a wealth bonus of 14+ so you either need to spend 14 hours, roll and cross your fingers in fear that you will have to do it again, or take 10 and spend ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY HOURS!

Yes. Thats right, it takes potentially twenty solid working days to buy the cheapest pistol without a chance of failure if you aren't abusing the wealth system. Thats even with a license even in a gun store in a country with only limited fire arms regulation.
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PhoneLobster

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2010, 11:33:19 PM »
Taking 10 only takes the normal amount of time. It's only taking 20 that takes 20 times as long. Taking 10 is just making a single, perfectly average attempt in the time of a single, average attempt. Getting said DC 14 pistol at a +4 Wealth bonus or higher would only take 14 hours under normal circumstances, not 140.
Whoops.

But it still takes 440 hours for a average middle class Wealth 8 character to buy a desktop PC. Since you DO take 20 for that.

I mean you can cut that down if you roll instead, but its never all that likely to be less than at least one or two working weeks, and if you do you risk poor luck forcing you to take LONGER.

When was the last time it took you eleven full time working weeks of shopping to buy your desktop PC?

No really how is that NOT a very stupid rule?

Also, 14 hours of shopping for the cheapest pistol in the game, still unacceptable. Buy a nice rifle and you could easily have the same or worse numbers than the desktop PC purchase.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 01:53:27 AM by PhoneLobster »

veekie

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2010, 04:07:06 AM »
Don't forget sleep time!
Unless you're spending more than 8 hours a day shopping.

On the other hand, Modern was published like 10 years ago.
PCs really DID cost that much, and took that long to purchase, they weren't exactly standard issue in most middle class homes.
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PhoneLobster

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2010, 06:36:20 AM »
Don't forget sleep time!
Unless you're spending more than 8 hours a day shopping.
My estimates of "working weeks" are based on a roughly 40 hour working week like the one civilized countries used to regard as the standard. Which is an approximately 7-8 hour day for 5 days of the week.

Quote
On the other hand, Modern was published like 10 years ago.
PCs really DID cost that much, and took that long to purchase, they weren't exactly standard issue in most middle class homes.
Er. Ten years ago was the year 2000 already. There were enough computers around that they had that whole zany "millennium bug" thing desktop PCs WERE common in middle class homes, and you could drive down to the local electronics store and buy a package deal with operating system and some junk software off the shelf in your lunch break.

Sure not every home had them and those that did would rarely have more than one (unlike today when it is not uncommon for there to be more computers in your house than people), but you know, you really could just go and buy one and no one would blink.

Heck even back in the 1980's you could go down to the better electronics stores and buy a PC, or order a kit off the back of an electronics magazine in the mail. They were well within price ranges affordable by the middle class and though you MIGHT have had significant wait times for a mail order or if the store was out of stock the actual shopping involved was hardly any longer than now. There was an actual honest to god Microbee shop front in my local regional trade hub! The PCs just sucked back then.

They ran on tapes and steam engines and pixie dust and stuff. You'd wait longer for a black and white pac-man clone to load off the tape deck than you would have spent shopping for the damn machine.

Littha

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2010, 08:53:25 AM »
So if you declare that sort of thing "less common objects" you seriously create a scenario where it literally takes a full 8 hour working day to buy jeans and a t-shirt (casual clothing item).

Have you been talking to my girlfriend? I have spent 8 hours buying one pair of jeans and a Tshirt before...

archangel.arcanis

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2010, 10:48:18 AM »
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McPoyo

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2010, 11:46:23 AM »
My point, Lobster, was you were comparing the combat ability of a fast hero built to shoot, and a smart hero definitely not built to shoot. The second comparison was much closer to actuality. And in truth, everyone could splash a single level of Fast Hero to get most of the good bonuses. It's more an issue of Fast Hero being overly strong in comparison to most of the rest of them. If you multiclass, or aim for an advanced class as quick as possible, it helps a little in terms of game balance, but it doesn't change the fact that Strong/Martial Artist aiming for ranged combat is still a better ranged combatant than a Fast/Soldier or Fast/Gunslinger.
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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PhoneLobster

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2010, 08:16:21 PM »
My point, Lobster, was you were comparing the combat ability of a fast hero built to shoot, and a smart hero definitely not built to shoot.
Except... they ARE supposed to shoot. Or at the very least get shot at. And his lower hit points and WORST defense bonus basically make him a stupidly easy target.

Smart heroes do not vanish in combat, they even get some combat specific talents (that are terrible).

One smart advanced class (the Field Scientist) that I covered even gets abilities that REQUIRE combat in order to work! (not that they work anyway...)

The bulk of the most important encounters in the game will indeed be combat encounters, and the Smart hero WILL be there and WILL contribute a lot less than a Fast alternative.

The smart hero is supposed to gain Craft, language and knowledge skills in some manner that makes up for not being a Dex specialist in a world ruled by Dex specialists. But for that to work his Craft, Language and Knowledge powers would have to be mighty, instead he takes days and weeks and actual wealth to make items, doesn't do anything special with knowledge and has language talents that do not actually fully describe how they are even supposed to function.

Now the trade of real combat power for some sort of skill based power is a bad idea in general, especially in a d20 based game. But if you ARE going to do that the Charismatic hero is a far better example as what THEY trade real combat for in skills actually DOES SOMETHING, does it big and eventually does it big enough to do it in combat (and does so before the end of their character career).

Quote
The second comparison was much closer to actuality.
What that Strong hero, easily the second (maybe tied second) best hero is still a worse choice for combat than the fast?

Imagine for a second we decided to build the level 4 Fast hero as a melee beast. The Fast hero loses 1 BAB, gains 2 defense, gains a better placed good base saving throw, STILL has Evasion and Uncanny dodge which he will STILL use, still has more and better skills to use, INCLUDING actual handy melee combat skills like Balance and Tumble that aren't even on the Strong skill list, and his bonus feat list includes handy melee combat feats. Seriously you trade +1 BAB and the +2 damage from 2xtalents for... better talents, more and better skills, better defense etc... Fast heroes are better melee beat sticks!

Imagine now the reverse. We are building a Strong Dex based character to fire guns. By level 4 we gain 1 BAB, lose 2 defense, have a worse save, have NO useful talents for a gun based character, have NO useful gun based bonus feats, have less and worse skills and so on. That is NOT a better gun slinger than a similar fast hero. That is a gun slinger with +5% hit chance who loses the comparison in every other respect by larger than -5% margins.

Quote
And in truth, everyone could splash a single level of Fast Hero to get most of the good bonuses.
Why yes, level 1 (as your first level for the big skill boost) is handy. But the defense progression remains among the best, you probably want at least another level so as not to lose out as much on the BAB, by then hell, why not take the third level for Uncanny Dodge because that is pretty cool. And you know you could easily stay for Uncanny Dodge 2 only 2 levels later...

D20 Modern was designed with the explicit intention that you should combine the base classes. But it was NOT designed with the explicit intention that everyone should add a minimum of 1-3 Fast levels at the start of their build. Tough 3/Smart 3 was SUPPOSED to be just as viable as Fast 3/Strong 3, it isn't, by a large margin. But worse NEITHER ONE is in any way especially more attractive than Fast 6. Fast is just that good until at least level 6 that very little in the game compares.

Worse a number of classes have horrid Class based bonuses that require you to keep investing in the same base class to keep them viable. Smart and Charismatic especially require that you remain almost entirely in their class in order to progress their stupid skill bonus powers. Every level out of class for a Smart hero is at least a -1 to all their utility skills, and for a Charismatic a -2 to their social skills. That adds up fast.

Quote
It's more an issue of Fast Hero being overly strong in comparison to most of the rest of them.
I prefer to think of it the other way around. As the fast hero is the closest to compare to monsters, the most likely to survive gun fights in a manner consistent with heroic story game play, and the one with the most fun powers.

If you are telling me Fast should be nerfed down to the standard of say, the Smart Hero who uses the Trick talent, well, then you are telling me the standard you want is one that just plain doesn't work.

If you decide to buff the Smart hero up until Trick is of comparable power to Uncanny Dodge and Evasion then you MIGHT have a functional game on your hands.

Quote
If you multiclass, or aim for an advanced class as quick as possible
Well you certainly do have that option, and indeed if you were playing say 100% Strong you LIVE for that option, your only reason for taking strong being to meet an advanced class BAB requirement a mere one level earlier.

Quote
but it doesn't change the fact that Strong/Martial Artist aiming for ranged combat is still a better ranged combatant than a Fast/Soldier or Fast/Gunslinger.
Interesting claim. Maybe its true, I don't know.

Now we already know that a Strong gun character is indeed inferior to a Fast gun character. So for your claim to be true we need to meet several conditions.
1) Martial artist needs to be better at guns than Soldier or Gunslinger.
2) Martial artist levels need to be so good that we want to (and can) get into them 1 level earlier with Strong and doing so makes up, and then some, for the levels of Strong instead of Fast that we took in order to get into it that much sooner.

But thats a biggish question to answer so I'll make it another post.

McPoyo

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2010, 08:26:08 PM »
Strong is the only base class with full bab. Martial artist has full Bab as well, though both soldier and gunslinger have 3/4. Straight attack-wise, it's superior, all other things being equal. Martial Artist doesn't get the improved crit multiplier of either soldier or gunslinger, but that's about it, in terms of what can be realistically accomplished via feats vs class features.
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2010, 10:08:35 PM »
McPoyo it doesn't matter what you say he will contend that you are wrong. If you have the patience to put up with him, then more power to you, but if not it is probably best to not feed the troll his need to argue.
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PhoneLobster

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2010, 10:27:49 PM »
So, the question, "Is a Strong/Martial Artist better at gun fighting than a Fast/Gunslinger or Fast/Soldier"


So lets check it out.
1) Is Martial Artist Better than Soldier and Gunslinger for using Guns?
Well lets see. We get better BAB, not a big deal in the world of low defenses and little to no armor, but OK, check.

We get ahead by just +1 defense one level earlier in otherwise the same defense progression, not much, but still, Check.

We get "better than good" Ref saves and poor other saves compared to two "just good" saves each from Soldier and Gunslinger. This is a hard call but I'm calling it a Wash vs Soldier (Fort+Ref is nice in modern) and a small lead vs the Gunslinger (Ref+Will is less nice in modern).

We... don't care about Reputation scores (but Gunslinger wins that, the others tie).

Its worth noting that the Martial Artist gets significantly less skill ranks per level than either of the others. But at least he has a nicer class skill list than Soldier. Still with the most ranks AND a good skill list the Gunslinger wins skills hands down.

Now the big bit, lets see, class Features.

Gunslinger Class Features
Gunslinger adds real bonuses to actual shooting. Some are rather insignificant (forced "free" weapon focus feats) but at least make up much of the lost ground on BAB to the martial artist, or a cover ability that makes up (and exceeds) the Ref and Defense lost ground on the martial artist. Some of the bonuses are actually rather nice like extra attacks, a choice bonus feats you actually want, extra damage, the ability to fire without provoking AoOs, etc...

Is there a level at which one might escape the class early with all the goodies in hand and go on to bigger better things? Not so much because Sharp Shooting and Bulls Eye are right at the top (unfortunately), but you could bail at level 5 with Lightning Shot and the numeric bonus abilities that make up for (and exceed) the basic BAB, Saves and Def loss to Martial artist.

Is the class useless up until a certain level? While the best abilities are rather late in the class there is a reasonable progression within your ranged speciality for most of the class so it isn't too bad.

Would you be better off just taking more fast levels? While Defensive roll and even accelerated movement are nice they aren't so nice you need to stick around past level 3 and take them. Level 3 is all you need to get into gun slinger and is a nice level to leave fast in general, so you might as well do so.

Would you be better off entering this fast from Strong levels instead? No. You will not meet requirements any sooner or contribute meaningfully to the career path.

Soldier Class Features
An odd choice since this is SUPPOSED to be a class you enter from Strong. And like all of those they give it an extra BAB requirement in an attempt to stick it in the eye for a Fast hero and make them wait until level 4 to enter. So it is going to make you eat level 4 of Fast whether you want to or not, its not a BAD level but its not great either. Alternately you can eat 2 levels of anything else you qualify for (body guard is nice except for the "WTF?" Concentrate requirement), or 1 level of Strong or Tracer. Take the level of Tracer, really, select "Human" as your target species, no really you ARE supposed to be able to do that.

Anyway. The soldier's bonus feats are only mildly useful for gun use, his other class features range from utterly unremarkable to vaguely nice numeric bonuses to damage and criticals that can and will be used with guns, or at least, A gun (stupid specialization restrictions).

Is there a level you might bail out happily? Well probably not, this class is if anything worse than the Gunslinger for weighting its good stuff to the far end. You really MUST stay until at least level 5 to make this class worth it at all, you should probably consider going all the way.

Is the class useless up until level 5? Pretty much. Weapon specialization is the best thing you get early, its OK but its hardly amazing.

Would you be better off entering from Strong levels instead? If you went melee then maybe, if you went gun style as suggested... probably not. The extra level or two on entry hurts but since basically anything else you spend those levels on is at least as good or better than this class anyway, what the hell might as well wait hey?

Martial Artist Class Features
OK this is another Strong targeted advanced class. So again you need +3 BAB to enter. So again you take a level of Tracer, an extra level of Fast or two of something else if you try and do this without Strong class levels. So Strong DOES enter this a level earlier than you.

But it is worth noting it has Two unarmed melee feats as its entry requirements. At entry level 3/4/5 thats a lot of feats. Feats NOT spent on gun related advancement. They are also both really bad feats. Even if you want to be Mr Melee.

Anyway.

"Living Weapon" is not gun/ranged related. Is rather poor even for melee. And is so poorly worded it actually unintentionally denies you the use of off hand attacks and unarmed two weapon fighting.

"Flying Kick" is not gun/ranged related and largely sucks.

Your bonus feats are all NOT gun (or even ranged) related.

"Flurry Of Blows" and "Iron Fist" are also BOTH not gun or ranged related. Flurry of Blows is, vaguely, OK but not good enough and only useful in unarmed melee, and Iron Fist is rather mediocre.

Is there a level a gun specialist breaks out of this class early with all the goodies in hand? Yeah, LEVEL ZERO. There is nothing in here a gun fighter wants. Indeed you only even enter this class, maybe, if you want to use unarmed attacks a lot. And ONLY then, if you want to mix in some swords with your fist then you don't take this class. You CERTAINLY don't mix it with guns and ranged attacks. If you DO like punching things you probably stay until either level 8 or 10. Which is sad.

Is the class a smooth progression or does is suck for a while? Well. For an unarmed guy it a a smooth progression, starting from "not as good as a guy who specialized with hitting things with sticks at my level" and ending in "still not as good as that guy is now but better than I was back then".  For a gun guy it is a rather terrible progression where you get nothing nice ever.

Is it better to enter this class from Fast? Maybe. If you are using this class as a gun character then HELL YES. But if you actually use this class as intended at least you WILL use your +2 melee damage bonus talent from strong so... yeah you'd have that at least. Personally even for unarmed melee I would consider entering from Fast 5 (yes FIVE one later than you need to) with Uncanny Dodge 2, and Weapon finesse and fighting as a Dex based unarmed dude. You'd suck but at least you would die a lot less with your massively superior defenses.

2) Is Martial Artist So Good Our Gun Expert Enters it One Level Early?
No.

Since he doesn't want to enter it at all.

Even if he DOES decide to enter it for its 'leet' lack of contribution to his gun fighting career... there is nothing in there he is in any hurry to get. He takes at least those 4 levels of Fast first and doesn't care that he could have gotten in one level sooner with Strong.

Well that was a short section compared to the last one.

3) Are there some other classes we should consider?
Yeah the Tracer class is pretty crash hot.

And oddly enough the Dreadnaught class isn't bad, if you like the bigger guns.

But d20 Modern is pretty low on good classes and as far as d20Modern goes the Gunslinger is actually a pretty crash hot Advanced Class so it's certainly enough to consider on its own.

Well that was another short section.

So Big Round Up which Class/Build is the better Gunslinger
I'm dropping the Soldier as the Fast/Gunslinger is a nicer all rounder and will be enough of a comparison to shame the Strong/Martial Artist (Gun Guy).

A Strong 3/Martial Artist 10 GUN EXPERT! compared to a Fast 3/Gunslinger 10 has... (both maxing out dex)

About +19 attack bonus (+13 BAB +5 Dex +1 Weapon focus) compared to the Fast/Gun Slinger +16 (+9 BAB +5 Dex +2 from Focus pseudo Feats they MADE you take) attack bonus. Yes it took you 13 whole levels of suck to draw ahead by a whopping +3 Bonus. And yes that IS only if you take Weapon Focus as a feat, but if you are a Strong gun expert you probably DO because it's the only "gun" feat on your bonus feat list so you take it at level 2 or get forced to burn yet another class resource on something not gun related. Not you CANNOT just go and take Greater Weapon Focus on the Strong/Martial Artist either. You lack the feats, but it doesn't matter because lame as it is that feat does not even exist in D20 Modern.

And a +14 Defense vs ... +14 Defense! Surprised? Well defense bonuses are crazy like that, the progressions in d20 modern defense are INSANE. Only note that the Fast/Gun Slinger can take cover for extra (that's extra extra vs a melee alternative because as a gun guy he can take cover at all and but still extra vs the gun martial artist because he gets a class based bonus when he does) Oh, and he has Uncanny Dodge... Note: Short of some truly zany shenanigans these are some of the best defense bonuses in the game. Notice they are lower than EITHER builds attack bonuses. Think on that and the fact that the Gunslinger has more ways to sacrifice attack bonus for more attacks and more damage. A lot more.

The Strong/Martial Artist has (before any attributes) +5/+8/+4 Fort/Ref/Will.

While the Fast/Gunslinger has (before any attributes) +4/+7/+6 Fort/Ref/Will. Only he also gets improved Cover bonuses to Ref again... Oh and he has Evasion...

Then the Strong/Martial Artist has a whole raft of talents and bonus feats That do not actually add to gun fighting at all.

And the Fast/Gunslinger has a whole raft of talents and bonus feats That DO add to gun fighting.

Fast/Gunslinger wins the "who is the better gun fighter" contest hands down. And will probably even do a pretty fair run if you compared him to a Fast/Tracer instead.

Looking at the incredibly poor comparison I am amazed that anyone ever thought the martial artist would be inexplicably better with guns.

Quote
Strong is the only base class with full bab. Martial artist has full Bab as well, though both soldier and gunslinger have 3/4. Straight attack-wise, it's superior
By 3 points at character level 13 with less than 1/2 the gun based feats and NO gun based class abilities/talents. And less skill ranks, and worse skill lists, and equal or worse defenses, and so on.

Just cop the 3 point attack bonus hit for the option of further eating attack penalties for extra bullets from two handed, double tapping, bulls eye, lightning shot whenever your still very nice attack bonus exceeds the commonly poor defenses of d20 modern targets.

It will be worth it by a LOOOOOONG shot.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 10:30:45 PM by PhoneLobster »

PhoneLobster

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2010, 10:38:17 PM »
McPoyo it doesn't matter what you say he will contend that you are wrong.
Interesting claim for you to make all things considered.

I've been quite quick to respond to points, admit when I made an error, and just spent a huge post openly considering the very real possibility that the seemingly zany claim that a Strong/Martial artist was a better gun fighter just in case it was right.

You on the other hand have done nothing but attempt character attacks and make assertions you refuse to back.

Are you sure you aren't talking more about yourself than me?

And it also seems YOUR "patience" with continually abusing me and maintaining your "need to argue" is pretty strong. For all you say you lack it you don't seem inclined to either put up or just shut up already.

McPoyo

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2010, 10:53:08 PM »
Exceeds common d20 modern targets, yes. iterative attack based attacks? No. D20 "monsters" which is something you were complaining everyone fell short on earlier? No. It makes a difference.

Also, everyone has been pretty offensive and accusatory in this thread. Granted, that may be because the first handful of responses involve posters talking about generalizations based upon their point-of-view on the rules that are claimed are "obvious". Either way this thread started off bad, and is continuing bad. I'm personally pleased that Lobster assessed my statements and backed them up with mechanics and math, to either prove my assertion or claim attempt was incorrect, or not. I still don't fully agree with him on some of his stuff, but I see where his claims are coming from, and can agree that from the point of view he is coming from, are pretty accurate. I have a different view, but I also have a completely different set of expectations of the system than he does, and view balance as automatically skewed and a lot less important for it's intent.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

PhoneLobster

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2010, 11:15:48 PM »
Exceeds common d20 modern targets, yes. iterative attack based attacks? No. D20 "monsters" which is something you were complaining everyone fell short on earlier? No. It makes a difference.
The brilliant thing about iterative attacks and damage boost for attack penalty options available to the gunslinger are that they are indeed options.

He can in fact just not do that and be a better defender, with better skills, only 3 less attack bonus and a number of damage boosting feats/options like Bulls Eye that DON'T lower his attack (heck even raise it with Dead Aim, not that you would do that since it isn't worth the paper its printed on...).

+3 is just not a big enough deal to burn everything else under the sun. It is barely noticable, +6 you would notice, +9 or more and you are dropping off the limits of acceptable difference. But 3? Hardly worth the loss of the skill ranks on their own.

With just the +3 difference it isn't going to save you or doom you vs those monster ACs. They will sometimes be too high for you but then +3 probably won't fix that. And as variable as monster ACs are they also will sometimes be low enough that all that optional attack for damage out put would be worth it. Heck when monster ACs ARE so big you only hit on 20s (which might just happen with the loss of all the core d20 enhancement bonuses and such) then the ability to sacrifice attack bonuses for more chances at rolling those 20s is flat out superior to a +3 that doesn't even change that situation.

Also a lot of the problems with monsters are in departments other than just raw AC. A CR 11 Megalodon is only AC 20, but it has 264 hit points. Indeed from even level 5 or six the problem with a lot of monsters is that they are running around with twice your hit dice, stupidly high Str and Con. I mean that megalodon has +24 to hit. You (as a level 13 Fast/Gunslinger or Strong/Martial Artist) have one of the best defenses in the game and it totals out to... 24. And its 2 CR lower than you. You are almost supposed to fight this guy 1 vs 1, regularly!

That isn't something that just kicks in at that level either, the menace manual is packed with low AC brutes with twice the hit die of their CR from an early level. All of them are things where you need to pump as many attacks/bullets/hit points of damage into them as possible before they close because once they do they WILL hit, hard, with every single attack. That Megaladon will Massive Damage with every single strike, that is not especially unusual. Expect to see a character drop every round once it makes it to melee. Itterative attacking it to heck will drop it far faster than the single +3 attack guy can manage.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 11:31:48 PM by PhoneLobster »

McPoyo

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2010, 11:29:12 PM »
Here's the important question: Does making the choice to do one of those other two proposed options instead of Fast/Gunslinger bring the gunner more in line with everything else class based in d20 modern?
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2010, 11:33:22 PM »
PL you came out being very abrasive and condescending toward people here. I tried to ask you to be more civil in making your points, from my point of view you didn't. In fact it seemed to escalate how abrasive you were.  If the communication problem is due to loosing context and tone because of the medium I'm sorry. I don't deal well with people who look down on others, especially for seemingly no reason, so I caused the problems to escalate by returning your condescension and hostile tone. Despite my disagreement with you on the system and tone of conversation I should not have returned such tone and will not continue to do so.

You guys have fun with your discussion of D20M. I think the author of the OP got what he wanted out of this thread and I'm satisfied with that so I'll leave this alone.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

PhoneLobster

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2010, 11:48:24 PM »
Here's the important question: Does making the choice to do one of those other two proposed options instead of Fast/Gunslinger bring the gunner more in line with everything else class based in d20 modern?
You mean Tracer and Dreadnaught?

Well Tracer is a bit like a rogue. Which is nice because hey, who wouldn't like some blasted Sneak dice already?

As a low BAB entry requirement full BAB progression class you can enter as a Fast 3 hero and never again be behind full BAB progression more than the 1 BAB you lost at Fast level 1.

Defense bonus is as good as it gets, the skills and saves... comparable but slightly worse than a Fast hero or Gunslinger.

On class entry you get a bunch of stupid bonuses vs a species of your choice. What you care about is you choose human and you pay attention to the +2 damage. If you suddenly fight not humans in large numbers you can change the species choice.

Aside from that all you ever get from the class is +3d6 sub par version of sneak damage (doesn't work on flanking, flat footed only) and some Stealth bonuses that sorta help you get that from time to time.

I would prefer gunslinger, but it's an OK class (for d20modern), nice as a 1 or 2 level dip, somewhere to go before or after gunslinger shows up in your gun expert career.

But all up weaker as an option I would say.


Dreadnaught is... weird.
It is a nice class with a broad range of options and bonuses.

Gun wise it lets you wear crazy heavy armor, defensive fight for untouchable defenses and dual wield rocket launchers or chain guns or something while doing so.

But aside from the dual wield heavy weapons and some acceptable bonus feats it isn't adding much to offense. Unless you dual wield chain saws and stop being a gun guy because its got a berserk ability better than a Barbarian's.

You take that class more for its mixed bonuses, stupid survivability and if everyone wants to be a damn space marine but still have enough class versatility to diversify and set themselves apart from each other somehow despite taking the same stupid class.


But really what do you mean by set yourself on par with the rest of d20 modern?

Because I don't know what the standard is. Is it the "Personality" an entire Advanced class worse than ONE talent from the Charismatic base class? Is it the abysmal Field Scientist? Or something like the "Field Officer", who makes the entire party invulnerable at the cost of all his actions, and, regularly, also at the cost of his life?

"The rest" of d20 modern ranges from so bad to worse to somehow stupidly good but boring and suicidal at the same time.

So I have no idea what the "standard" if any is, or even is supposed to be.




shesheyan

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2010, 10:38:57 AM »
Nothing new here...*shrugs*

PL : All the statements  you make (or import from other forums) are knowned facts since d20 modern came out. The last modern book was published in September 2006... Nonetheless, many choose to play the game anyway. We each have our houserules for the aspect of the game we find weak or don't agree with.

At this point there are constructive three stances one can adopt in regards d20Modern. Participate in either the e20 or p20 projects. The third option is to register to the Modern d20 Unlimited forum (in my sig), which is a community that trives on building patches and alternative rules for d20Modern.

...move along, move along

Shesheyan
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 10:47:12 AM by shesheyan »

PhoneLobster

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Re: D20 Modern seems to be self-destructive
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2010, 02:34:38 AM »
So you are suggesting what? that instead of d20 modern everyone should talk about (and play) some who knows how different/worse/better sorta kinda spin off projects?

While that might be nice the thread was about d20 modern, not whatever home brew creation alternative you care to name. And also d20 modern was bad enough that while I am certainly not put off the modern genre entirely I AM put off any project that thinks it is a good idea to emulate anything other than d20 Modern's goals (since its methods were so shockingly bad).

But if you want to bring such alternate rules sets into the discussion, well hey that's cool, but more than just a name drop might be helpful.

Some mention of how these alternatives don't tear themselves apart like d20 Modern itself does would be I am sure both interesting to the OP and to me at least.

For a start a few of the "common house rules and patches" that make the 5 other base classes besides Fast actually worth taking would be really cool.

EDIT: PS, just looked up "e20". Read the "e20 lite" rules. The ones written by apparently a guy partly responsible for the horror story that is star wars saga edition. But pretending that he isn't that guy after reading the rules I only find myself thinking. "You ARE kidding right? This is not a good d20modern alternate, it doesn't even really exist."
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 03:07:17 AM by PhoneLobster »