Author Topic: Frank & K's Tomes  (Read 5536 times)

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Straw_Man

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Frank & K's Tomes
« on: June 16, 2008, 04:07:10 AM »

  I've been reading through their stuff and I'm really impressed. Their redone Fighter actually sounds viable beyond a 2 level dip. Anyone played a game using all of the Tome material?

  The Tomes are available here http://turing.bard.edu/~mk561/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf
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Slate

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2008, 04:20:25 AM »
I skimmed the barbarian but he seemed a little...woah.

The fighter redone: They made him a warblade!  So of course he's gonna be more playable  :P   I kid.

The die re-roll is very powerful and seems like a perfect addition...problem is he gains it at first level.  Imagine the amount of Fighter 1 dips just to get Combat Focus.

Overall the redone Fighter is awesome and a lot more Fighter 20 builds might see the light of day while being playable, but I wonder about the overall power of the class isn't waaaaay to high.

Look at Foil Action+Array of Stunts...you can lock 1 person within 30 feet down forever if you can hit them with touch attacks.  That's vastly overpowered.  Did I mention that you get 2 attempts per round and can re-roll one of them?

With some re-balancing it would be very cool and totally balanced.

P.S.  Any thoughts on my character in the PbP?   :P

Leress

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 02:53:39 AM »
You can't lock some one up forever with that combo. You may be able to stop a wizard (marginally), but only if you have two fighters gang up on one.

I've played several games with the Tome material and it isn't really all that powerful, it makes melee people want to actually stay in a class and play more like that imagined their characters to be like. There are some problems that are there though. Since it is incomplete some of the benefits that are gained with armor are a little unbalanced and also since the Book of Gears isn't complete it just adds to it.

Stratovarius

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 09:02:07 AM »
I've never played with, but always been impressed by, the work put into the Tome of Necromancy, especially the prestige classes. This is mostly because I love necromancy though. Some of the latter Tomes (of War, the martial one), I feel were superseded, in this case by ToB.
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Straw_Man

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 05:10:33 PM »

If we had a PbP game start up I would urge the GM to try this stuff. The flavour is delicious, and the non-casters aren't all weaksauce.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Slate

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2008, 06:01:38 PM »
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You can't lock some one up forever with that combo. You may be able to stop a wizard (marginally), but only if you have two fighters gang up on one.

I challenge you to defend your statement.  In fact, only a wizard or other spellcaster has a *chance* of getting away from this fighter albeit a poor way.

You get one Immediate Action per round.   At 13th level you get an additional one from Array of Stunts.  Therefore, a single fighter has 2 uses of Foil Action per turn.

Therefore, a single fighter can completely shut-down an opponent all by himself if he can hit them with touch attacks.  He can stop two of their actions a round as Immediate Actions if he can hit them with a touch attack, which he could re-roll if he missed.

So if the caster tries to cast a spell, bam interrupt.  If they try use an immediate action of any kind...bam interrupt.  It allows you to interrupt any action.

You can lock someone up *forever* with this.

OH and don't forget - you still get to take a full round worth of action's on your own.   If you throw in mageslayer+thicket of blades then you would be nigh unstoppable, for really.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 06:05:52 PM by Slate »

Leress

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2008, 03:00:44 AM »
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You can't lock some one up forever with that combo. You may be able to stop a wizard (marginally), but only if you have two fighters gang up on one.

I challenge you to defend your statement.  In fact, only a wizard or other spellcaster has a *chance* of getting away from this fighter albeit a poor way.
Not entirely true
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You get one Immediate Action per round.   At 13th level you get an additional one from Array of Stunts.  Therefore, a single fighter has 2 uses of Foil Action per turn.
Two uses per round, but yes true
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Therefore, a single fighter can completely shut-down an opponent all by himself if he can hit them with touch attacks.  He can stop two of their actions a round as Immediate Actions if he can hit them with a touch attack, which he could re-roll if he missed.
Only if he had combat focus up will the fighter get a re roll by dropping out of it. Another fighter or some other full BAB person has 3 attacks or more attacks, the fighter only stops two of them. Also it can only be used at 30ft away so archer characters can just plug away. Many melee monster have even more attacks.
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So if the caster tries to cast a spell, bam interrupt.  If they try use an immediate action of any kind...bam interrupt.  It allows you to interrupt any action.
Yes, it is very help but the limits keep it in check.
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You can lock someone up *forever* with this.
I have shown that you can't.
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OH and don't forget - you still get to take a full round worth of action's on your own.   If you throw in mageslayer+thicket of blades then you would be nigh unstoppable, for really.
To set that up you would need about 2 rounds to do that, one for combat focus, one for the ToB stance since they are both swift actions. Mageslayer doesn't even do all that much since by 13th level a mage has enough in Concentration to just plain cast a spell and not do it defensively. I seems like a waste of feats to me.

Slate

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 03:35:21 AM »
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I have shown that you can't.

I respectfully disagree for a number of reasons.

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Only if he had combat focus up will the fighter get a re roll by dropping out of it. Another fighter or some other full BAB person has 3 attacks or more attacks, the fighter only stops two of them. Also it can only be used at 30ft away so archer characters can just plug away. Many melee monster have even more attacks.

Let's pick this apart, shall we?

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Another fighter or some other full BAB person has 3 attacks or more attacks

That's nice.  Using these "three or more attacks" usually requires what we call a "Full-Round Action".  According to "Foil Action" the entire ACTION is stopped.  So they would not get three attacks, they would get 0.

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Also it can only be used at 30ft away so archer characters can just plug away.

Thank god this can only be used from 30ft (and later 60ft!).  However I question what your Fighter is doing if they are not trying to achieve MELEE distance with a foe.  You could be an archer but I believe many if not most people who play the Fighter class see them primarily as MELEE.

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Only if he had combat focus up will the fighter get a re roll by dropping out of it.

I assume that in the first round of combat IF your fighter is not within 30ft, and CANNOT move to within 30ft of his opponent, he will use a swift action to activate Combat Focus because that makes sense.  Then the second they get within a turn's worth of movement of 30ft from a foe you can bet they would.

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To set that up you would need about 2 rounds to do that, one for combat focus, one for the ToB stance since they are both swift actions. Mageslayer doesn't even do all that much since by 13th level a mage has enough in Concentration to just plain cast a spell and not do it defensively. I seems like a waste of feats to me.

I already cleared this up.  If you're not within one entire move's worth of distance PLUS 30ft, you can safely use a swift action to enter combat focus.  Repeat until you are on top of them.  Now use a swift action to activate Thicket. Additionally, I was under the impression that you could stay in Thicket of Blades stance "forever" until you swapped out of it - so yeah I'm pretty sure you do not need to use an action here ever.

What are they going to do now? You can't move without an AoO (throw Standstill into this for easy pwnage).  Try to cast a spell? Mageslayer.  You're going to do it non-defensively?  Hope you can make DC 30+ Concentration checks like they're going out of style.  And btw, if your AoO fails to disrupt the spell, you can still hit them with Foil Action!!!


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Yes, it is very help but the limits keep it in check.

There are only 2 limits that I would consider in the 'pathetically easy to achieve' category.

1) 30ft (later 60ft) range
2) Hit with a Touch Attack

I think we can show both of these are not incredibly limiting circumstances. 

Look at number 1.  If you're a level 13 fighter that does not have access to haste/fly as an item/potion/team buff I would have to shrug.  But even without those, a base 30ft of movement allows a double move of 60ft which means that 30ft range is *effectively* 90ft.  If they try to use a Move Action, Foil it.  If they try to do anything else, Foil it.  They would need ANOTHER action to do something - in which case next round they'll most likely be facing the same situation.  Spells/Potions/etc are totally wasted on the other party's behalf but the Fighter has an unlimited use of Foil Action to keep excessive pressure on.

Look at number 2.  If you're a level 13 fighter with 13 bab, decent str, etc. you should have no problem making a touch attack into the mid 20's; very few monsters have that kind of touch AC.  Consider that a level 13 Fighter could shut-down any dragon or the tarrasque from the MM on a roll of a 2.  That's not "too good"?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 03:40:04 AM by Slate »

Leress

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 05:40:46 AM »
On Full Attacks: Full Attack is a weird action in that you actually don't ever take it. Not only is it interruptible with other actions, but you actually are still possibly taking it, possibly not until after your first attack. So you don't declare a Full Attack, a Full Attack must have occurred once you declare your second attack action.

So the quantum state required for foiled action never happens. The action declaration is in the past not the present so it can't be countered. All the attack actions inside a Full Attack are fair game however.

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What are they going to do now? You can't move without an AoO (throw Standstill into this for easy pwnage).  Try to cast a spell? Mageslayer.  You're going to do it non-defensively?  Hope you can make DC 30+ Concentration checks like they're going out of style.  And btw, if your AoO fails to disrupt the spell, you can still hit them with Foil Action!!!

Quote from: SRD on Concentration

So no, a 30+ Concentration isn't needed just a 22.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 05:49:20 AM by Leress »

Stratovarius

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2008, 08:40:54 AM »
Casting defensively does not work with the Mageslayer line of feats, which is what Slate is pointing out. So, the wizard does not have many of the options he would normally enjoy.
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Slate

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 02:24:55 PM »
Yeah, what Stratovarius said.

I'm surprised no one else has chimed in about this.


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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 05:33:59 PM »
I ran a tome Monk, RAW sorcerer, and a RAW cleric.  The monk didn't blow chunks.
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Catharz Godfoot

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 05:52:57 PM »
Yeah, a fighter using Foil Action can really ruin a mage's day.
Locking the wizard down as long as you keep hitting can really make up for all those 'save or dies'. If the wizard has teleport, foil becomes less useful because the wizard can just move away (and get foiled) and then teleport, or move away (and not get foiled), and then teleport (because she's now out of foiling range).

Thankfully, by the time a wizard can normally access quickened teleportation, the fighter has both increased range and an extra foiling attempt.
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Straw_Man

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2008, 05:57:47 PM »
I ran a tome Monk, RAW sorcerer, and a RAW cleric.  The monk didn't blow chunks.

When you say don't blow chunks, do you mean comparable power levels?
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Leress

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2008, 08:46:36 PM »
My mistake on the casting defensively part.

Foil action is still not that broken, yes it is very powerful. It is a very good ability that allows for the fighter to reduce the actions of the enemies he faces.

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Re: Frank & K's Tomes
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2008, 10:02:49 PM »
I ran a tome Monk, RAW sorcerer, and a RAW cleric.  The monk didn't blow chunks.

When you say don't blow chunks, do you mean comparable power levels?
I've only been through the opening encounter of RHoD, but the monk was better at melee than the melee cleric (No DMM, but took tome feats).
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