Author Topic: Graft Handbook Question  (Read 10070 times)

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LunaticsLament

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Graft Handbook Question
« on: February 24, 2010, 09:35:12 PM »
Has anyone thought to make a Graft Handbook?  I was looking at some other than my personal favorite of the Eye of Flame from Libris Mortis and was thinking of what else could be used but could not find a good reference on the boards.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2010, 09:43:04 PM »
This is normally something for the "Ask a Simple Question thread" but I had nearly finished exactly this when I lost a bunch of my info on it. Its on my to-do list.

I might have it merged with the item creation guide bastian and I will get up soon. If we have the board's interest (meaning actual help  :P) I have my Graft Handbook up and running very very soon!
[Spoiler]
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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And healed. Don't forget that.
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LunaticsLament

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2010, 10:15:55 PM »
Brilliant!  And you are right I should have put this on the ask a question thread.  I blame it on lack of sleep and grading freshmen all day.
"The capacity of the human mind for swallowing nonsense and spewing it forth in violent and repressive action has never yet been plumbed. "
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snakeman830

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2010, 11:28:43 PM »
Best grafts I've found are the Silithar grafts in Lords of Madness.  No downsides and all unnamed bonuses.  Unfortunately, they're pricy.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
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hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
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sonofzeal

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2010, 12:15:19 AM »
Elemental and Maug grafts rock (four ones I'd definitely consider using each), that Undead and Illithid are also good (three winners each), Dragon grafts are mediocre (two winners), and Yuan-Ti and Construct are best left alone (one winner each).  I haven't rated Beholder, Fiendish, Plant, Deathless, or Aboleth. 

Silthilar are okay but incredibly expensive; they're generally only worthwhile if your DM follows the "New Style" graft rules that limit you to five.  "New Style" grafts (anything from Eberron or Races of the Dragon) all require separate feats, limit you to five, limit you to only one type with no mixing and matching, are limited to 1 graft per item slot, apply an hp penalty, and Fleshwarper technically doesn't ever grant you access to them.  "Old Style" grafts (from any previous books) all worked off of the same feat, but had different special requirements which Fleshwarper gradually lets you bypass.  You also weren't limited to only five, or only one type, or only one in an item slot.  You can't even apply "New Style" rules to the "Old Style" grafts because many lack associated slots.  So yeah, talk to your DM and try to work something out.

snakeman830

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2010, 12:31:44 AM »
It is a good idea to have a dividing line between those with those limitations and those without.

The reason I don't like Illithid grafs so much is the -4 penalty on saves vs. Mind-affecting effects per graft.  That's a hefty price as it basically requires a Third Eye Conceal so you aren't totally screwed over (although a lot of characters will get one anyway).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

sonofzeal

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2010, 12:53:55 AM »
It is a good idea to have a dividing line between those with those limitations and those without.

The reason I don't like Illithid grafs so much is the -4 penalty on saves vs. Mind-affecting effects per graft.  That's a hefty price as it basically requires a Third Eye Conceal so you aren't totally screwed over (although a lot of characters will get one anyway).
Agreed on all counts.  There's a couple other factors - New Style grafts usually come with synergy bonuses for having multiple, such as DR, so the scale hasn't tipped entirely.


Good grafts.....

"New Style"
Buffeting Fists [Elemental: Air] - Bull Rush plus multiple Deflect Arrows
Whirlwind Form [Elemental: Air] - Flight
Stony Plating [Elemental: Earth] - +1 NA
Tremor Graft [Elemental: Earth] - Tremorsense
Glaring Eye [Draconic] - blindsense 30', +2 Search and Spot, immunity to magic sleep effects.
Gleaming Scales [Draconic] - +1 NA, Resist 5 one element
Mighty Arms [Construct] - gain natural slam attack

"Old Style"
Bonemail [Undead] - +2 NA
Mohrg's Tongue [Undead] - extra secondary attack paralyses
Weakening Arm [Undead] - +4 str, special str drain touch attack.
Brainmate [Illithid] - +10 to two different Knowledge skills
Goring Horn [Illithid] - natural Gore attack, gain Improved Bull Rush feat
Weapon Graft [Illithid] - manufactured weapon becomes natural weapon, gains +1 atk/dam, can't be disarmed
Added Tail [Yuan-Ti] - Swim speed, +10 Swim, +4 Balance, Constrict

(to be continued)

LunaticsLament

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2010, 01:19:44 AM »
Don't forget the undead graft Eye of Flame.  1/day 10d6 fireball for 10,000 gold and unlike many grafts you can still count on the possibility of getting laid.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 02:31:14 AM by LunaticsLament »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2010, 01:29:55 AM »
Best grafts I've found are the Silithar grafts in Lords of Madness.  No downsides and all unnamed bonuses.  Unfortunately, they're pricy.
What about the fiendish legs in FF.

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2010, 02:34:39 AM »
Almost all of the Fiendish grafts are worth it in an arena setting.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2010, 12:42:02 AM »
"New Style" grafts (anything from Eberron or Races of the Dragon) all require separate feats, limit you to five, limit you to only one type with no mixing and matching, are limited to 1 graft per item slot, apply an hp penalty, and Fleshwarper technically doesn't ever grant you access to them.  "Old Style" grafts (from any previous books) all worked off of the same feat, but had different special requirements which Fleshwarper gradually lets you bypass.  You also weren't limited to only five, or only one type, or only one in an item slot.  You can't even apply "New Style" rules to the "Old Style" grafts because many lack associated slots.  So yeah, talk to your DM and try to work something out.
I'm tempted to quote this in the handbook :)

Could you list books for each of those types? I can't find any maug grafts... (are those the guys that stand up and get bigger? lolz)

I would love for you to put a bit more info into what you listed for those grafts so I can put it here
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 12:51:37 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

bearsarebrown

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2010, 12:51:55 AM »
Maug is in Fiend Folio. Along with a bunch of other grafts.

Deathless are in Magic of Eberron I think.

Ithamar

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2010, 01:25:36 AM »
Yes, Deathless = MoE.

Isn't there a graft from there that gives Earth Glide as well?  It is pricey as I recall, but oh so useful.
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sonofzeal

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2010, 05:21:47 AM »
"New Style" grafts (anything from Eberron or Races of the Dragon) all require separate feats, limit you to five, limit you to only one type with no mixing and matching, are limited to 1 graft per item slot, apply an hp penalty, and Fleshwarper technically doesn't ever grant you access to them.  "Old Style" grafts (from any previous books) all worked off of the same feat, but had different special requirements which Fleshwarper gradually lets you bypass.  You also weren't limited to only five, or only one type, or only one in an item slot.  You can't even apply "New Style" rules to the "Old Style" grafts because many lack associated slots.  So yeah, talk to your DM and try to work something out.
I'm tempted to quote this in the handbook :)

Could you list books for each of those types? I can't find any maug grafts... (are those the guys that stand up and get bigger? lolz)

I would love for you to put a bit more info into what you listed for those grafts so I can put it here
OLD STYLE
-Fiend Folio (Aboleth, Illithid, Beholder, Fiendish, Maug, Undead, Yuan-Ti)
-Libris Mortis (Undead)
-Lords of Madness (Aboleth, Illithid, Silthilar)
-Serpent Kingdoms (Yuan-Ti)
-Underdark (Illithid)

NEW STYLE
-Magic of Eberron (Deathless, Elemental, Plant)
-Races of the Dragon (Dragon)
-Faiths of Eberron (Construct)


Note that, when a graft type is listed in two different books, it very often has new grafts in one or the other.  You have to consult both to be authoritative.

Arz

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2010, 02:51:17 PM »
Would it be too divergent to include symbionts (most in MoE&ECS&FF) in such a project?

I think they have a similarity to grafts in being of an old and new style. AFB, so I can't include more specific info.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2010, 10:12:13 PM »
Would it be too divergent to include symbionts (most in MoE&ECS&FF) in such a project?

I think they have a similarity to grafts in being of an old and new style. AFB, so I can't include more specific info.
Unlike grafts, symbionts are not crafted. I could not find a single one that was optimal or even useful. I don't think having a little creature slowly eat you is a reward
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

snakeman830

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2010, 10:22:38 PM »
Would it be too divergent to include symbionts (most in MoE&ECS&FF) in such a project?

I think they have a similarity to grafts in being of an old and new style. AFB, so I can't include more specific info.
Unlike grafts, symbionts are not crafted. I could not find a single one that was optimal or even useful. I don't think having a little creature slowly eat you is a reward
Some symbionts are better than others.  For example, Ghostly Visages can be pretty good (but are really best as a Dread Necro's familiar)

However, as PBMC pointed out, they can't be crafted, so I don't think they should be included either.

As a sidenote, my summary of all grafts from Lords of Madness in the Item Crafting guide is done.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2010, 10:38:25 PM »
Would it be too divergent to include symbionts (most in MoE&ECS&FF) in such a project?

I think they have a similarity to grafts in being of an old and new style. AFB, so I can't include more specific info.
Unlike grafts, symbionts are not crafted. I could not find a single one that was optimal or even useful. I don't think having a little creature slowly eat you is a reward
Gutworms aren't useful?
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snakeman830

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2010, 10:41:46 PM »
Would it be too divergent to include symbionts (most in MoE&ECS&FF) in such a project?

I think they have a similarity to grafts in being of an old and new style. AFB, so I can't include more specific info.
Unlike grafts, symbionts are not crafted. I could not find a single one that was optimal or even useful. I don't think having a little creature slowly eat you is a reward
Gutworms aren't useful?
They aren't symbionts ;)
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Graft Handbook Question
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2010, 11:42:42 PM »
Magic of Eberron has an Symbiont that is a 7th level sorcerer.