Author Topic: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells  (Read 46909 times)

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carnivore

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2010, 07:32:08 PM »
Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster = Sorcerors able to gain Early entry to some PrCs at the same level as wizards or earlier, legally .... also allows you to use a Low level spell to power a Reserve Feat, thus keeping the spells you need to know for reserve feat to a Minimum


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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2010, 08:14:49 PM »
That's just versatile spellcaster being awesome.  Sanctum spell is more effective for trickery.
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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2010, 09:25:51 PM »
True, but Sanctum isn't as good for low-level blaster trickery.

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2010, 04:38:35 PM »
Even without early entry trickery, I've often found Heighten Spell to be a solid investment.

bearsarebrown

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2010, 04:41:20 PM »
I think Heighten Spell is more useful if you have less encounters per day. Which is almost always the case in high level games. When you have eight level 7 slots, why not heighten that Glitterdust? You're not going to use all the spell-slots anyways.

But, I agree with Prime. It should just be inherent to the casting mechanic because it just makes sense.

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2010, 12:52:49 AM »
Prime32: Simply saying "All spells have a DC based on the level of the spell slot used, including with other metamagic" would close so many loopholes.
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snakeman830

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2010, 01:43:08 PM »
Prime32: Simply saying "All spells have a DC based on the level of the spell slot used, including with other metamagic" would close so many loopholes.
I don't think that's a good idea.  Then you can Quicken spells and get an extra +4 on the save DC.  Let's just make metamagic more uber, shall we?

I think it would be better to have spells cast using higher level slots (although NOT because they were adjusted with metamagic) to be counted as spells of that level.  For a completely unoptimal example, let's say a Wizard prepares Fireball in a 5th level slot.  This sets the Fireball as a 5th level spell for all relevant effects (i.e., save DC, Spell Turning, etc.).  Another Wizard prepares an Empowered Fireball in a 5th level slot.  This is treated as a 3rd level spell for all intents and purposes other than spell slot used, being Empowered.  This looks much better to me.  That way, you don't have DC 15+Int Mod Fireballs dealing 10d6 damage and DC15+Int Mod Fireballs dealing 15d6 damage in the exact same slot.  The latter would have to be used in a higher level slot still for that extra effect.
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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2010, 01:52:26 PM »
Prime32: Simply saying "All spells have a DC based on the level of the spell slot used, including with other metamagic" would close so many loopholes.
I don't think that's a good idea.  Then you can Quicken spells and get an extra +4 on the save DC.  Let's just make metamagic more uber, shall we?

I think it would be better to have spells cast using higher level slots (although NOT because they were adjusted with metamagic) to be counted as spells of that level.  For a completely unoptimal example, let's say a Wizard prepares Fireball in a 5th level slot.  This sets the Fireball as a 5th level spell for all relevant effects (i.e., save DC, Spell Turning, etc.).  Another Wizard prepares an Empowered Fireball in a 5th level slot.  This is treated as a 3rd level spell for all intents and purposes other than spell slot used, being Empowered.  This looks much better to me.  That way, you don't have DC 15+Int Mod Fireballs dealing 10d6 damage and DC15+Int Mod Fireballs dealing 15d6 damage in the exact same slot.  The latter would have to be used in a higher level slot still for that extra effect.
Yes, lets. Because frankly most metamagic sucks donkey balls. Almost no one ever actually uses any metamagic aside from Extend, Sculpt, and Quicken without some kind of "reducer" like Divine Metamagic and Incantatrix levels. The original idea behind metamagic was supposed to be that it was actually worth using without reducers. Clearly that's not the case.

So yeah, I'm all for having the DC set by the slot used. This actually would benefit people who use it "the old fashioned way", but not those that use cheese like DMM (Quicken). Throw out Heighten Spell entirely, and have the spell's DC determined entirely by the slot used for it, regardless of whether it has metamagic applied to it or not.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2010, 12:32:25 PM »
There's quite a few metamagic feats that are well worth the cost by themselves besides the ones you mentioned: empower spell (empowered fireball outperforms a cone of cold for levels 9-14 and is equal to it at level 15+ for example), split ray, chain spell, and twin spell.

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2010, 08:14:10 PM »
I've never really been in a situation when playing a sorcerer where heightening a spell would be better than just using a spell of that level.

It's rare, but with a Sorcerer's limited spells known, it can happen. For instance, let's assume you've just hit 14th level and got your first 7th level spell. Arcane Spellsurge is it, if you know what you're doing. I'm assuming you've got a Runestaff for Elemental Body. That 3 spells per day (and let's assume 1 more from CHA, shall we?), one going to EB, you've got 3 left. Now, I'm not sure you'll be casting this 3 times a day. Probably, but who knows? Well, actually, I'm sure you will.

Now look at your 8th level spell when you're 16th. It's what? Greater Arcane Fusion, right? But what if your only Will Targeting spell is Freezing Glance? Won't you agree that +2 DC is worth a higher slot for this spell? Or you're fighting a Black Ethergaunt, and know that without Heighten it does nothing? Perhaps you want +4 DC for Wings of Flurry? I'd still prefer GAF.

I agree it doesn't come up as much, but what with your fairly limited spell choices it might come in handy. It's one of the better Metamagics for DC based spells (...wait, isn't it just better to make the spell itself better with Metamagic?). I'd still prefer other Metamagic most of the time, such as making that Wings of Flurry Maximized, though.

You know what, after all that looking at options and spells, I've decided I really prefer other Metamagic. Also, Sorcerers are all the more pathetic now that I've looked at the table again. Hell, without Metamagic, I could predict their every action. Still can, probably. Good thing my DM is reasonable.

Heighten gets an F.

Hurry up and get a character done for Ith's arena, I want to show you the power of a Sorcerer abusing Heighten Spell :3

JaronK

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2010, 08:54:31 PM »
Yes, lets. Because frankly most metamagic sucks donkey balls. Almost no one ever actually uses any metamagic aside from Extend, Sculpt, and Quicken without some kind of "reducer" like Divine Metamagic and Incantatrix levels. The original idea behind metamagic was supposed to be that it was actually worth using without reducers. Clearly that's not the case.

Devil's advocate here, but I like using Twin Spell on Wings of Flurry.  Twice the damage and two saves or be unable to act is pretty darn useful.  Admittedly I usually have Arcane Thesis involved there, but I'd do it anyway.  Maximize or Empower can totally be worth it as well, and so can Chain.

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ninjarabbit

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2010, 09:47:46 PM »
Arcane thesis is also just as valuable for the +2 CL boost to wings of flurry

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Re: 8 Simple Rules For Selecting Sorcerer Spells
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2010, 07:44:03 AM »
Hurry up and get a character done for Ith's arena, I want to show you the power of a Sorcerer abusing Heighten Spell :3

In an arena, things change value. DC and Action Economy Matter much more, and a single failed save might spell victory. So yes, I could see the use, but I'd still fear other Metamagic more.

A Twinned, Maximized Wings of Flurry with Arcane Thesis is a 9th level spell, but it does 264 damage (without any other CL boosts, and you probably have several) and forces 2 Reflex saves vs. Daze. That's scary.
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