d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.

[bkdubs123]

OK, so you don't understand basic calculus.  In that case, no offense, but you aren't really qualified to be talking about infinities.

And you're choosing to dismiss me rather than actually explain how you would go about summing the infinite of 2+2+2+2+... without expressing it as a limit or function, which smells fishy. But /dickmeasuring; I'm out.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

OK, so you don't understand basic calculus.  In that case, no offense, but you aren't really qualified to be talking about infinities.

And you're choosing to dismiss me rather than actually explain how you would go about summing the infinite of 2+2+2+2+... without expressing it as a limit or function, which smells fishy. But /dickmeasuring; I'm out.

Sorry, unless you're going to pay me I'm not interested in giving remedial math tutoring.  

Read a textbook, or do a google search on summation of infinite series, or change your name to Zeno and live in a hut; I don't really care.

You'd be best off not chasing any tortoises, though.

[McPoyo]

I've been refraining from being a gigantic ass so far, but here goes, because your argument bkdubs is so wrong to the game and so over-the-top ridiculous it isn't funny, and deserves an equal return argument: Hi Welcome.

[Bauglir]

OK, so you don't understand basic calculus.  In that case, no offense, but you aren't really qualified to be talking about infinities.

And you're choosing to dismiss me rather than actually explain how you would go about summing the infinite of 2+2+2+2+... without expressing it as a limit or function, which smells fishy. But /dickmeasuring; I'm out.

Well, as I understand it, calculating its limit as it approaches infinity does give you the value of the entire series after an infinite number of iterations. I no longer remember the proof of that, however. Like I said, 3 and a half years does a number on what you can remember. So, I'm sorry about that. Unfortunately, all I can really say is that doing something infinitely many times in a finite amount of time doesn't necessarily pose any conceptual problem, just a logistical one if you were to actually try and do it with something other than abstract numbers. The short version of my argument is that the Crusader player's turn can complete; he just has to roll infinitely many dice first, and since we know that series diverges to infinity and can therefore calculate its value in lieu of rolling actual dice, we can easily move on in reality in the same way that creatures in the game will move on (because there are no rules for fucking with time like this).

[Littha]

(because there are no rules for fucking with time like this).

Unless you are a high level caster or psion...

[Kajhera]

Random note: My dad doesn't believe in calculus. I've never quite understood why, or what exactly he doesn't believe in about it, since he's willing to accept many of its uses.

Calculus is a perfectly reasonable math to come up in this section of the boards. I've seen it often enough before with D&D theory. *shrug*.

[McPoyo]

(because there are no rules for fucking with time like this).

Unless you are a high level caster or psion...

Those have nothing to do with meta-concept resolution effecting in-game time, though.

[Littha]

(because there are no rules for fucking with time like this).

Unless you are a high level caster or psion...

Those have nothing to do with meta-concept resolution effecting in-game time, though.

True, but it is fucking with time nonetheless

[Rejakor]

If someone is trying to argue that rolling infinite dice means that the characters in the DnD world notice that time has stopped and that a lot of dice must therefore be being rolled, he deserves calculus to be used on him.

Characters do not notice dice rolls.  DnD creatures and people do not know about the metagame rules of DnD.  They don't walk up to each other and go 'Diplomacy Check: 37!  You like me now.'.  That is not how it works, under the rules.

Some rolling a large number or infinite dice does not cause all the DnD characters to stand around going 'hey, is it my turn yet'.  That is pants on head retarded.  It causes everyone at the table to be really bored.

That's pretty much all it does.

[bkdubs123]

Well, as I understand it, calculating its limit as it approaches infinity does give you the value of the entire series after an infinite number of iterations. I no longer remember the proof of that, however. Like I said, 3 and a half years does a number on what you can remember. So, I'm sorry about that. Unfortunately, all I can really say is that doing something infinitely many times in a finite amount of time doesn't necessarily pose any conceptual problem, just a logistical one if you were to actually try and do it with something other than abstract numbers. The short version of my argument is that the Crusader player's turn can complete; he just has to roll infinitely many dice first, and since we know that series diverges to infinity and can therefore calculate its value in lieu of rolling actual dice, we can easily move on in reality in the same way that creatures in the game will move on (because there are no rules for fucking with time like this).

Right, which, as I said, can be done, if you want to rule it that way, but you're talking about house rules then. YES, the DM could rule that rather than the Crusader rolling dice for an infinitely long amount of time that his damage is merely expressed as the function of his infinite series, which doesn't ever do any actual damage to the FB, but it does at least end his turn. The reason I don't like this method of resolution is because it means the DM is ruling against the rules as written a) that damage is always a minimum of 1 and b) that the Crusader gets to choose whether or not he keeps rolling the dice.

And everyone in this thread has been treating this theoretical optimization example as if it's something happening in an actual game with real players and a real DM. Which boggles my mind to say the least. This is NEVER going to happen in a real game. So why are we saying anything like, "the other players are going to get bored," or "hey! my character doesn't know about metagame rules of D&D!"? I'm pissing people off apparently, but I'm the only one treating a theoretical optimization argument properly, which is to say, I'm the only one trying to interpret what will happen in this situation based solely on the rules as written. The rules say that nobody else in the encounter gets to act. Ever. I don't give a fuck if the characters in this theoretical game don't know what a standard action is, and it doesn't matter. The rules say they don't get one, no move, swift, or full round actions either, so whether the characters know they are fucked or not doesn't matter. They ARE fucked until the Crusader decides they aren't. The argument isn't that an arbitrarily large number of dice stops D&D time, the argument is that, by kinks in the wording, the Crusader simply decides to stop time. He gets to do this because of infinite dice, but that's just the tool he uses for leverage.

I've already explained that stopping time like this doesn't result in people standing around waiting for their turns. Several times in fact, so I'm not going to bother doing it again.

[McPoyo]

You've changed what you are trying to argue *counts* three times now.

[bkdubs123]

You've changed what you are trying to argue *counts* three times now.

I'm glad you think so.

[bearsarebrown]

If I roll my 10d6 Fireball damage with one die ten times and my friend Wizard rolls ten d6s at once, did his turn last longer then mine?

[bkdubs123]

I'm not going to argue the point anymore, but I am going to restate it in a clear, serious, and non-cute way.

1) The Crusader deals 1d2 damage with his weapon.

2) The Crusader has an ability to treat 1s on a die roll as 2s.

3) Using the Aura of Chaos stance, the Crusader is allowed to roll his damage dice once more every time his die shows a maximum value.

4) The Crusader's damage dice always show a maximum value and therefore when he hits with an attack roll his damage can increase as much as he pleases, even stretching to infinite. The Crusader is explicitly given choice, as the language in the Aura of Chaos stance, as to how many times he wants to continue rolling damage.

5) Because the Crusader cannot kill the Barbarian with any arbitrarily large number of damage dealt, he instead chooses to continue rolling damage unto infinity.

6) Because the Crusader is given explicit choice over how long he may continue to roll his damage, and because he chooses to roll unto infinity his attack action never fully resolves, because his damage is impossible to calculate in terms that D&D is compatible with.

7) Because the Crusader's action never resolves his turn never ends.

8) Because the Crusader's turn never ends no other turns ever begin, thus the round is stuck resolving the Crusader's action forever.

From here, extrapolate the "in-game" effect however you like. I chose to state that Time within the encounter is effectively stopped, but this is an unnecessary point to press because it is a fluff explanation for the theoretical mechanics of gameplay that will never happen.

[bearsarebrown]

because his damage is impossible to calculate in terms that D&D is compatible with.

Why?

[Epimetheus]

#6 is wrong.

[skydragonknight]

There is no mechanic for resolving this, so EVERY resolution mechanic is a houserule. Though by my reading the Crusader CAN choose to stop. So the simplest resolution is the M:tG one: "how many times do you do this?"

[Agita]

There is no mechanic for resolving this, so EVERY resolution mechanic is a houserule. Though by my reading the Crusader CAN choose to stop. So the simplest resolution is the M:tG one: "how many times do you do this?"

More precisely: If both the offender and the defender have abilities that could cause an infinite loop (such as a creature having "0: Regenerate" and another having "0: Deal 1 damage"), the defender wins.

[Amechra]

[temporary return to boards for one post]

bkdubs123, I have utmost respect for you as a homebrewer. However, it is painfully obvious mathematics and temporal physics are not your strong suits. This is OK.

A quick explanation of why the d2 Crusader does not stop time, even if you consider rolling damage dice to take "time" within the game:

1. You roll an X number of dice in (let's say that you use only a standard action to attack, so that gives you about 3 seconds (random figure, expect a deviation of about a second here; has anyone ever established, based off of average move actions, how long each type of action is? I digress.))

2. Now, I see that you have accepted that those X dice are all rolled within that period of objective time. Therefor, rolling, let us say, for a small example, 60d6 in that time, assuming that the dice rolls actually take time, each roll would take a 20th of a second. Capisch?

3. Now, let's go back to Mr. Crusader. He deals damage with an infinite number of dice, which are still confined within those 2-4 seconds; therefor, they take an amount of time equal to (2~4)/infinite, or functionally 0.

4. This effectively means that, given infinite damage dice and actual in-game time for those damage dice to resolve, an infinite number of dice won't actually take any time, because each roll effectively takes an amount of time equal to 0 seconds. You grok me, mate?

Hope this hasn't confused things further. Hope you learn calculus, my friend; 'tis fun and useful.

<This has been a public service announcement by Amechra, from the Society for Better Mathematics>

[/temporary return to boards for one post]

[Viktyr Korimir]

There's an even simpler explanation:

THE CRUSADER IS NOT ROLLING DICE.

The Crusader is hitting the Frenzied Berserker with a small gauntlet once for an arbitrarily high amount of damage, taking an amount of time that is more than 0 seconds and less than 6. The person playing the Crusader may or may not be rolling any dice, depending on how long it takes the rest of the table to get the point and whether or not they're willing to drag out play to belabor it, taking whatever amount of time is necessary to resolve the action. The two time frames-- in-game and out-of-game-- are wholly unrelated and have no effect whatsoever upon each other.