Author Topic: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.  (Read 23435 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2011, 02:19:05 AM »
The Shadow Cloak (DotU) helps the Frenzied Berserker interrupt the infinite strikes.

It's not infinite strikes. It's one strike that deals infinite damage (and in so doing stops time at an indeterminable, but fixed, instant sometime after the strike lands).

So the immediate action Shadow Cloak will not actually prevent the stoppage of time since the damage is still being rolled, thus preventing another turn from ever taking place.

Now, TML, you my friend are on to something. WHAT HAPPENS?! You'll have to have the means to manifest Time Hop as an immediate action, but IF you do... I fear the world, neigh the very universe, as you knew it will have ceased to exist. Is it replaced by a shattered mirror reality occupied by abberent stand-ins of creatures and things you once knew? Is it a barren wasteland devoid of all life? Will you have hopped into an entirely alternate universe?

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2011, 12:22:39 PM »
Surely rolling damage takes no time at all in-universe? It's a purely meta thing.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2011, 12:48:16 PM »
Jade Phoenix Mage with Greater Invis has a good shot. Follow up with Disintegrate.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

BackHandOfFate

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 17
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2011, 02:10:53 PM »
Ok lets break it down then.

Assuming The Following:

LV14 Crusader Vs: Barbarian6-9/FrenziedBerserker5-8

Reason for Lv14? I was going to choose level 12 as the encounter point, but realized that I would be shoehorning the Barbarian too much by forcing it to choose a race that grants a bonusfeat at 1st level, because a lv12 character cannot possibly attain Deathless Frenzy without multiclassing into Fighter for the bonus feats(which the Frenzied Berserker STILL has the option of doing at lv14).  How does the D2Crusader benefit from this?  He doesn't have to waste a feat at level 12 to attain Aura of Chaos, instead getting it at level 14 as a 4th martial stance.  So both sides benefit from a little more flexibility.  I am FULLY aware that there are other methods of attaining the tools(I.E. class features such as Rage, and Martial Stance(Aura of Chaos)) and have purposefully left these out of my analysis in an attempt to keep things from getting too out of hand. For the Frenzied Berserker, Barbarian and Fighter levels will be accepted to help qualify for the FB Prestige Class, and the D2Crusader will be stuck singleclassing it.

As a handicap, I'll allow the Frenzied Berserker to take levels in fighter in order to qualify

Now lets analyze these Two PC's according to a few different categories.

=============
Feats
=============
The Barbarian(Or Barbarian/Fighter) needs four feats to net himself entry into Frenzied Berserker. (Power Attack, Cleave, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage) Leaving him with very little room for customization in this area.  In order for a single Classed Barbarian to qualify for this feat at level 6 he'll need access to an extra feat somehow(Human or Strongheart Halfling?) or access to Flaws.  Assuming either of these races, the Frenzied Berserker will have 2 Open feats left, which depending on the level of encounter optimization he will need for this match will either be chosen in order to assure a draw (such as the aforementioned Pain Mastery from Savage Species, which requires toughness, AKA "the best feat EVER"), or guaranteeing that he cannot be hit once, giving him a chance to possibly win.(Not sure what 2 feat combo could pull this off really.)  ALTERNATIVELY, it IS possible to qualify for this class with a single level of Barbarian, leaving you to take a few levels of Fighter, for the two levels of fighter you could take to free up some feat slots.  (Power Attack and Cleave are both Fighter Bonus Feats)

For the Crusader, things are a little more flexible.  The only feat you need to pull off this particular build is a little doozy called IMBUED HEALING.  With no PrC to qualify for, the rest of your feats are free for whatever you want, about 4-5 feats remaining(based on racial choice).  Depending on the level of optimization, you might go the Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target Route to negate the massive Powerattack damage that the Frenzied Berserker has.  There's quite alot you can do with that many feats.  The SKY is the limit!

=====================
Class Features
=====================
The Barbarian's Class features are pretty straight forward, Rage being the staple of this build.  Also, the conventional wisdom around these parts is to replace fast movement with Pounce via Spirit Totem alternate class feature.  The only other part of Barbarian that could possibly come into play would be Uncanny Dodge(In case he loses Initiative or is otherwise caught flat-footed).  Damage reduction and Trap Sense will not come into play in this scenario.  And...OH and hey! Hes also Illiterate!  As far as Frenzied Berserker is concerned, Deathless Frenzy is another staple of this build.  The Basic FB strategy will be to take full advantage of Powerattacking on a charge for a tastey 3x(or more) bonus damage.  Depending on the build, Greater Frenzy is attainable by 14th level.  The decision to take levels in fighter will make it possible to attain Greater Frenzy, which brings the total strength bonus to +14 when raging AND frenzying.  Pretty scary stuff!

The Crusader has alot going for it.  Firstly, Steely Resolve helps him absorb a bit of extra damage without dropping, Giving him an effective 20 extra HP for the purposes of this encounter, and DieHard gives him an extra 9.  For the Frenzied Berserker, HP is largely irrelevant in this matchup, but this is not the same with the crusader.  Furious Counterstrike means that supposing the Crusader somehow loses the Initiative and lives through the onslaught, he will have a greater chance to hit with his counterattack.(Elusive Target goes a LONG way towards ensuring survival of a Full attack from the Frenzied Berserker).  His Martial Stance(Aura of Chaos) is one third of what makes him the D2Crusader, so we will assume he at least stays in this stance until he makes a hit.  MANEUVERS are the real advantages here.  Moment of Alacrity virtually ensures that the D2Crusader will win Initiative.  EMERALD RAZOR almost guarantees that the D2Crusader will be able to hit with at least one attack.  IronBones(DR10/Adamantine for 1 round after a successful attack) could help keep you alive assuming the Barbarian doenst have an adamantine weapon already handy.  Disrupting Blow, depending on how high your strength modifier is, could cause the FB to lose his turn!(If he doesnt have some way to cover his weak Will save, like Steadfast Determination.  Shield Counter can go a long way towards keeping you alive for a round.  

================
Equipment
================
This is where things get crazy.  Anyone with the appropriate wealth of a 14th level character could easily pump their AC to insane levels, or do any number of interesting tricks.  Since neither has more wealth than the other, then neither has the advantage in this area.

More later...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 02:20:00 AM by BackHandOfFate »

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2011, 02:55:08 PM »
Surely rolling damage takes no time at all in-universe? It's a purely meta thing.

I thought this myself until I realized that the Crusader's turn can't end as long as he wishes to continue rolling his infinite damage. In which case, it goes from being a meta thing to actually having a very tangible effect on the game world.

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2011, 03:09:24 PM »
Surely rolling damage takes no time at all in-universe? It's a purely meta thing.

I thought this myself until I realized that the Crusader's turn can't end as long as he wishes to continue rolling his infinite damage. In which case, it goes from being a meta thing to actually having a very tangible effect on the game world.
no, its purely Meta. The game may come to a standstill, but that has no effect on the world in the slightest
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2011, 03:20:25 PM »
Surely rolling damage takes no time at all in-universe? It's a purely meta thing.

I thought this myself until I realized that the Crusader's turn can't end as long as he wishes to continue rolling his infinite damage. In which case, it goes from being a meta thing to actually having a very tangible effect on the game world.
no, its purely Meta. The game may come to a standstill, but that has no effect on the world in the slightest

How does it not? If no creature is able to act because it's always the Crusader's turn, how does this have no effect on the world?

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2011, 03:36:00 PM »
Surely rolling damage takes no time at all in-universe? It's a purely meta thing.

I thought this myself until I realized that the Crusader's turn can't end as long as he wishes to continue rolling his infinite damage. In which case, it goes from being a meta thing to actually having a very tangible effect on the game world.
no, its purely Meta. The game may come to a standstill, but that has no effect on the world in the slightest

How does it not? If no creature is able to act because it's always the Crusader's turn, how does this have no effect on the world?
*Sigh*

Because it is a purely meta-concept. It doesn't actually exist in the world, and it happens outside the world's timeflow where time is nonexistant. This isn't like a compter process slowing down the world it runs, it is purely non-connected and a meta-world function. 30 google dice rolls takes the same "time" as 1 roll does to the world.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2011, 03:49:15 PM »
Feel free to ignore the "meta" concept of turn order in your games if you like, but just realize that if, in this example of d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy, time did not stop, that if any creature could just choose to act during the Crusader's turn, that you are pretty much ignoring the game rules at this point and calling it a day. At which point, you might as well just DM Fiat the outcome of the d2 Crusader/Deathless Frenzy fight.

Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2011, 03:51:14 PM »
Luck Devotion
I think you mean Imbued Healing (Luck). Luck Devotion doesn't work because although average damage on a d2 is 1.5, rolling a 1 only gives you the option to boost it to half the maximum possible. Which is 1.

Imbued Healing, although you have to jump through a few more hoops to get it, just lets you treat any damage roll of 1 as a 2.

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2011, 04:07:27 PM »
Feel free to ignore the "meta" concept of turn order in your games if you like, but just realize that if, in this example of d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy, time did not stop, that if any creature could just choose to act during the Crusader's turn, that you are pretty much ignoring the game rules at this point and calling it a day. At which point, you might as well just DM Fiat the outcome of the d2 Crusader/Deathless Frenzy fight.
I'm not ignoring meta-concepts, I'm saying the arbitration of them has no time effect on the world. The comparison as you've set it up would be akin to a video game server slowing down the world while it works to run things, resulting in freezing the world until the infinite rolling is ended. Except that's not how things work in the game, because there's no causality between meta resolution and time-flow for the world.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2011, 04:16:23 PM »
I'm not ignoring meta-concepts, I'm saying the arbitration of them has no time effect on the world. The comparison as you've set it up would be akin to a video game server slowing down the world while it works to run things, resulting in freezing the world until the infinite rolling is ended. Except that's not how things work in the game, because there's no causality between meta resolution and time-flow for the world.

I don't argue that the comparison I've set is like a video game server crash, but just because the game world is supposed to be "real" and "not a video game" doesn't make my point any less valid. Explain to me how you reconcile the fact that no creature, not even the Crusader as a matter of fact, is able to act (with the exception of immediate actions of which there is a finite number) while the Crusader wishes to continue rolling damage with your opinion that there is no causality between meta resolution and the game world's time flow.

EDIT: I'm sorry, explain it such that you're not just saying, "rule 0 newb."
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 04:19:09 PM by bkdubs123 »

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2011, 04:26:18 PM »
Because it's using a dice-based arbitration method to illustrate within the mechanics the result of his attack, which has no effect on the game world. Just because a player wants to keep rolling a 1 sided die doesn't mean the world freezes, it just means attention is turned from it. Everyone else at the table is perfectly justified in ignoring the crusader's player for disrupting the game once the attack goes off, because by RAW the player cannot stop rolling until the damage is fully resolved. No, that isn't DM-Fiat, either.

The better explanation would be "Does it take more time in-game for a 10 dice fireball to finish than a 3 dice fireball? No? Well that answers your question".

I get what you are trying to claim, but it is based on a flawed stance regarding action causality, and comes down to you attempting to be cute and pedantic.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2011, 05:59:26 PM »
Everyone else at the table is perfectly justified in ignoring the crusader's player for disrupting the game once the attack goes off, because by RAW the player cannot stop rolling until the damage is fully resolved. No, that isn't DM-Fiat, either.

Any case of the players or the DM ignoring the rules because they are "perfectly justified," is an example of house rules at best or Magical Tea Party at worst.

By RAW, when using the Aura of Chaos stance, a Crusader chooses whether or not to keep rerolling, as shown via bolded text below,

Quote from: Tome of Battle
While you are in this stance, your attacks have the potential to be utterly devastating. When rolling damage for a melee attack, you gain a special benefit from any damage die that rolls its maximum amount (such as a result of 6 on a d6). When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll each such die and add its result to the original damage total. You can continue to reroll as long as a die shows its maximum possible result, adding each new number to the damage total until each die has shown less than a maximum result.

But even if the Crusader wasn't able to choose when to stop rolling, and thus allow his turn to end, how do you explain that simply ignoring the rules that say, "players may take non-immediate actions only during their turns" is anything other than house ruling an effect or Magical Tea Party?

Quote
The better explanation would be "Does it take more time in-game for a 10 dice fireball to finish than a 3 dice fireball? No? Well that answers your question".

You're looking at it the wrong way. Does a 10 dice fireball allow you to finish your turn? Yes. Does an infinite dice fireball? No. The point is, the Crusader's attack is as infinite as he wants it to be. Which, if he doesn't want the Frenzied guy to kill him, is going to be full-fledged time-stopping infinite. In most situations, such as the infinite dice fireball is concerned, players and DMs would obviously WANT to cut off an infinite dice fireball's damage so that it is no longer infinite, but rather an arbitrarily large number. HOWEVER, in this specific case, the point I'm making, is that the Crusader gets to make the call, and he most definitely doesn't want his action to resolve since the FB is just going to ignore any arbitrarily large number of damage and kill the Crusader anyway.

Quote
I get what you are trying to claim, but it is based on a flawed stance regarding action causality, and comes down to you attempting to be cute and pedantic.

I'm not sure you do get what I'm claiming quite yet. No, there can be no in-game time difference in resolving any arbitrarily large number of damage dice and resolving just one damage dice. BUT, in this specific instance, where the Crusader gets to decide just how infinite he wants to go, it is in his best interest to go all-out infinite and there is a definite in-game difference in resolving an infinite number of damage dice and resolving even the largest arbitrarily large number of damage dice.

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2011, 06:04:36 PM »
If he never resolves the attack, he never deals damage. He can't win that way.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2011, 06:15:25 PM »
If he never resolves the attack, he never deals damage. He can't win that way.

He can't win if he deals damage either. Which is the whole reason I'm even discussing the crazy infinite damage time-stopping shenanigans.

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2011, 06:21:10 PM »
But it doesn't stop time, just the game until someone gets bored enough to cockslap the crusader's player to death. In the game, there was never a "pause".
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2011, 06:28:50 PM »
But it doesn't stop time, just the game until someone gets bored enough to cockslap the crusader's player to death. In the game, there was never a "pause".

It stops all creatures, not just other player characters, from taking actions. That sounds like Time Stop to me. You're right, in the game there isn't a "pause;" rather before the Crusader's attack hit there was Time and after it hit... there wasn't. Plus, this is Theoretical Optimization. Infinite damage loops aren't going to be allowed in any tabletop game, so nobody's going to get cockslapped to death. But since the question was posed, I committed to what I felt was a plausible explanation of what would happen.

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2011, 06:31:35 PM »
Explain to me how you reconcile the fact that no creature, not even the Crusader as a matter of fact, is able to act (with the exception of immediate actions of which there is a finite number) while the Crusader wishes to continue rolling damage with your opinion that there is no causality between meta resolution and the game world's time flow.

Because a round always takes a finite amount of time (6 seconds). There are no rules in D&D relating to relativity, therefore it can safely be assumed that time passes at a fixed rate. Therefore, the Crusader must roll damage dice infinitely quickly to accommodate the infinite number of dice to be rolled in a finite amount of time. His player's inability to roll damage dice infinitely quickly is irrelevant to the in-game world.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: d2 Crusader vs Deathless Frenzy. Discuss.
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2011, 06:36:03 PM »
bkdubs, There's no plausibility to what you posed unless the time spent rolling effects the world somehow. Timehopping passed the rolling wouldn't result in some weird alternative timestream universe like you posted at the top of page 3.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]